Fatimah Gilliam-Voting Rights Ruling-Jim Crow 2.0

Show Transcript

Fatimah Gilliam: Voting Rights Ruling=Jim Crow 2.0

[00:00:00] Bob Gatty: We're living in a time when a former president refuses to acknowledge his reelection defeat, falsely claiming that thousands of votes were cast illegally. In the aftermath of that, many states, mostly led by Republicans, are making it harder for people of color to vote on the assumption that they would vote in favor of the Democrats.

[00:00:25] Even the courts are getting in on the act. Now, Justice Counts podcast host Mark Bellow and I are delighted to welcome author, lawyer Fatima Gilliam to discuss all of that. So stay with us. 

[00:00:41] Gilliam is an author, lawyer, consultant, public speaker, and entrepreneur whose career combines expertise in the law, diversity, human capital, leadership, stakeholder engagement, and negotiations. She holds a law degree from Columbia Law School, a master's in public policy from Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government, and an undergraduate degree from Wellesley College. Gilliam is the founder and CEO of the Azara Group. Which provides diversity and inclusion, leadership development, negotiation, and strategy consulting services to Fortune 500 corporations, senior executives of billion dollar businesses, and industry thought leaders.

[00:01:31] She's the author of a new book, Race Rules, What Your Black Friend Won't Tell You. So Fatima, thanks so much for joining us today for the Lean to the Left and Justice Counts podcasts. 

[00:01:45] Fatimah Gilliam: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to speak with you both. Hey, 

[00:01:48] Mark M. Bello: Mark. Hi, how are you? Hi, there's a case going on right now in the 8th circuit in Missouri.

[00:02:00] That might seriously limit voting access. I understand that it might be headed to the Supreme Court. What's it all about, and why should our listeners be concerned?

[00:02:14] Fatimah Gilliam: The case in the Eighth Circuit, the one that was decided in November 2023, is really impactful because there's been a long period of cases eroding away at the Voting Rights Act, which was passed in 1963 and reauthorized multiple times.

[00:02:31] So the first case one of the most impactful case was in 2013, which was Shelby County versus Holder, and that struck away parts of the Voting Rights Act. That meant that areas that traditionally had discrimination would have to go through a pre clearance process before they made any changes to voting procedures and guidelines, they would have to get approval from the government either from either through the courts or, some sort of oversight process before they could implement that change.

[00:03:02] And that case, that Supreme Court case struck down the preclearance requirement. Then after that, you had a case in 2021. I'm going to mispronounce the name Ranovich from Arizona. That then chipped away at section two of the Voting Rights Act. So they're just been like chipping away, right?

[00:03:22] So you get rid of preclearance. Then the next one made it harder for people to sue. And then this next one that just happened in the Eighth Circuit, chips away at Section 2. Section 2 was like the remaining little piece of the Voting Rights Act that enabled people to sue to enforce their voting rights.

[00:03:41] And what that case in the 8th Circuit is about is making it so that private people cannot sue to enforce their rights, meaning that the NAACP, the ACLU, all of these organizations that have for many years, for decades, have been the core of suing to enforce Voting Rights Act, wouldn't be allowed to do that.

[00:04:02] And instead, it would just be the federal government. And that is impactful because the federal government only takes on a handful of cases, right? Litigation is slow. It's expensive. And frankly, the federal government does not have the resources to pursue all of these cases and infringements on people's rights.

[00:04:21] So if people are not allowed to sue and we have to wait for the federal government, that effectively means people are not going to be able to enforce their rights to vote in this country. 

[00:04:33] Bob Gatty: That's just great. What's the makeup of the Eighth Circuit panel? Is it in Missouri? It must probably be Republican, right?

[00:04:43] Fatimah Gilliam: Honestly, I cannot speak to that because I haven't looked into who makes up the Eighth Circuit. But what I can say is one thing that's beneficial, at least for now, is that this decision is only going to impact The 8th circuit states, right? So it's Missouri. I cannot remember every state that's in the 8th circuit.

[00:05:00] Maybe it's 1 of the Dakotas. Beyond what covers the 8th circuit, but that means that the rest of the country is not subject to this. ruling, and it's probably going to bubble up to the Supreme Court. And frankly, given the makeup of the Supreme Court, if there isn't any significant change, I really don't see it surviving.

[00:05:17] Justice Roberts, he doesn't seem like he really cares much about voting rights. Neither does Justice Alito. Clarence Thomas is just there, with them. And so it's really a dangerous time. What really needs to happen is that Congress Needs to act, except we already know what Congress is like.

[00:05:34] They're focused on a whole bunch of distractions, unfortunately, as opposed to what they were elected to do, which is to legislate. 

[00:05:40] Mark M. Bello: Good luck with that. I want to ask Bob's question in a different way. Why is it the Democrats seem to care more about freedom to access to voting while Republicans seem to want to restrict access?

[00:05:58] Fatimah Gilliam: So if I understood your question, you're saying, why do Democrats, why are they the ones that are pretty much trying to protect people's rights? And then you have the Republicans trying to restrict, is that your question? 

[00:06:08] Mark M. Bello: that was my question. 

[00:06:09] Fatimah Gilliam: Okay. I think the reality is, to be frank about it, when everybody can vote and there's an increase of access to the polls, the Republicans tend not to win, they're and since they have a failing platform, in my view, for a lot of the things that they advocate for when it comes to, the things that they currently stand for are not the things that majority of people of color are going to want to support. And as we become a majority minority nation, with the browning of America and the increase in diversification, that's very threatening.

[00:06:43] So if you're not going to win on the issues. You're not going to want to adjust your platform with changing times and changing interests. What you do is you make it more difficult for people to vote, which is, frankly, part of the history of this country anyway, is that, everyone to vote anyway, even back from two or for an inception, people want to think about the United States being a country that's all about democracy and and people choosing their own paths and having freedom. But, when we founded this nation in the 1700s, it was only. White men who were property owners that were allowed to vote, and then it started expanding to you didn't have to have property, then it just becomes more and more people.

[00:07:26] And then it wasn't even until the 1920s that Native Americans were even citizens of this country. And effectively, Native Americans didn't have fully across the country the right to vote until the passage of the Voting Rights Act in 1965. 

[00:07:41] Bob Gatty: We're really talking about blatant bigotry, right? That's what we're talking about. 

[00:07:45] Fatimah Gilliam: Pretty much. That's the lane that a lot of our policies seem to be in, and I find it highly problematic. I care a lot about democracy. I care a lot about voting. I've spent a lot of my free time over the years. I've volunteered as a volunteer attorney for election protection so that people have access to the polls because I believe in democracy.

[00:08:13] Honestly, it's also one of the reasons why I decided to write a book is because I care very much about democracy and people having freedom and their rights, not restricted rights. And in my book, I have an entire chapter that I dedicated to voting rights. I even have a chart where it's like Jim Crow versus Jim Crow 2. 0 , And I lay it down and I show how things are very much the same from back in the day. 

[00:08:41] Mark M. Bello: You laughed at Bob's question, which I think was meant to keep you from crying. I want to ask you about the Voting Rights Act itself. Why isn't it enough to protect us? What is, what does it say?

[00:08:57] What does it do? What does it not say and do? Why can't it protect us? I 

[00:09:05] Fatimah Gilliam: can't dive into the letter of the Voting Rights Act, because to be honest, I have never fully read the Voting Rights Act, and I'm not, and I'm not holding myself out there to be a voting rights attorney, because I, that's not the kind of attorney that I was a contract corporate attorney, but in terms of why the Voting Rights Act can't fully protect us is because, at least with what's been happening with the Supreme Court, is it's being stripped away, right?

[00:09:30] So if you have protections that were envisioned And included in its original version, right? So if you had states like Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Virginia, I can't remember like all the six or so states that were listed for preclearance that had a history of discrimination, they would have to go through a process to make sure that they weren't going to disenfranchise people, that they weren't going to come up with, a process around registration or absentee T ballots or all of these kinds of things that we're going to be discriminatory. So they would have to get approval. They would have to have a review process. So there were protections that were built into it, right? That was like section four that had that designated what regions were covered by preclearance.

[00:10:15] And then section five was about preclearance of the Voting Rights Act. And Shelby struck that away. And then you had. Section 2 that enabled for people to sue anywhere, right? Didn't have to be these, Alabama, these specific states to protect their rights. And then Brevanovich, or again, ruining the name of the pronunciation.

[00:10:36] It's B R N O V I C H versus the Democratic National Committee. From 2021 stripped away more pieces, and that was an attack on section 2 that then had this 5 prong test that Alito said in his opinion that basically just makes it harder for people to enforce their rights. And then now you have this decision coming out of the 8th circuit.

[00:11:00] So I hope that's helpful. Or maybe I don't know if I'm going too deep in the weeds for my knowledge base. But but the problem is that for the voting Rights Act to be effective, it needs to be reauthorized over time. It needs to be updated as things change. And in the Shelby case, Justice Roberts was like, Oh, his approach was like, Oh, we've evolved.

[00:11:23] We're a better society. We don't need that. That's just bogus because as soon as that case. Was decided immediately. You had a flurry of states, passing all kinds of restrictions around absentee ballots around making it difficult to register purging people from the poll, from the voter registry.

[00:11:42] So you just had an onslaught. And even when you have states that vote for certain things they're not necessarily followed, right? So I think it was 2018 might be the year in Florida, the voters on the ballot voted to reinstate the voting rights of former Incarcerated people and that's what they said that they wanted.

[00:12:05] And instead, as a response to that, the next year, the Republican controlled Florida legislature was like, oh, we're going to put all these requirements, like these fines that people have to pay and these. We need these costs, which to me is like a de facto poll tax, before you can reinstate your voting rights.

[00:12:22] So you can have people vote for stuff and then you can have the legislature just say screw you. We're doing our own thing. Good luck. See if you can overcome this. 

[00:12:32] Bob Gatty: I love your use of the term Jim Crow 2. 0. I just thought that was right on the money. But you say that the strategy will strip freedoms and suppress votes of people of color and younger, urban, elderly and disabled Americans.

[00:12:48] What could people do about that?

[00:12:51] Fatimah Gilliam: I think people need to start paying attention to what's going on. There's just so many people that are checked out and then they have rights that are taken away. And they're like. Oh, I had no idea that was gonna happen, even for something that's not even in the voting category.

[00:13:05] It's you need to pay attention just generally. So you can have the overturning of Roe versus Wade, and you can have a lot of people who don't pay attention that all of a sudden they need an abortion. For whatever reason, and then they're like, oh, I can't do that. I was like, were you not reading the paper?

[00:13:22] Were you not paying attention to the news? I guess you weren't. You were not voting. Oh, okay. Yeah, good luck with your abortion. That's not going to happen unless you go several states over and they may come for you for trying to leave the state for trying to have an abortion. Yeah, that's what we are. Unfortunately, people need to pay attention. I will say this. I really recommend that people watch something specific. So Senator Sheldon Whitehouse. When Amy Coney Barrett was up for the Supreme Court seat, which obviously she was successful getting and when he, as being on the Justice Committee on the Senate, he has this opportunity to ask her questions.

[00:14:00] He decided not to waste his time asking her questions, and instead, he did this exceptional 30 minute presentation on the long term strategic take over of the courts and the money and the dark money behind it. And I really recommend People look at it. Yes. It's like a c span video It is not sexy, but it is exceptionally informative to show how there's been this methodical Overtaking of the courts and why you kept having these 5 4 decisions 5 4.

[00:14:31] Now it's 6 3 decisions, you know by gaining more seats, so I You know people they're not paying attention. They're not thinking about the makeup of the courts, but the courts this is where we Have our freedoms restricted or expanded so wake up america 

[00:14:49] Mark M. Bello: How could they be asleep when the republicans were a year?

[00:14:54] Wouldn't approve Merrick Garland, and then in five seconds approved the justice you just spoke about. What hypocrisy these people are guilty of. 

[00:15:05] Fatimah Gilliam: They're hypocrites, right? They'll come up with some kind of rule oh you need to have a certain period of time before president is leaving.

[00:15:12] No, you don't. That's not even a legit thing, but that's what you want to do. And then, oh, let's force this person through before the next president is leaving. 

[00:15:20] Mark M. Bello: He wasn't even shy about it. He admitted it. 

[00:15:25] Bob Gatty: What a scumbag he is. 

[00:15:26] Fatimah Gilliam: This is where we are in America right now, whether this is in the Senate or whether this is with the Supreme Court, because I have significant issues with the Supreme Court.

[00:15:37] Where we are is we already know what we want to do, and now we're just going to come up with the argument that supports whatever it is we want to do. And even if it conflicts with a decision that was made before or a process that we came up with before, we're going to change it. Because we don't care.

[00:15:55] Because at the end of the day, we have a vision for how we want society to be, and that vision tends to lean into controlling the rights of women, controlling the rights of people of color, controlling the rights of people to have unfettered access to whatever is important to them in their lives. Except, of course, you can have unfettered access to a gun.

[00:16:18] Mark M. Bello: Women need to organize and take over the world. The men have screwed it up terribly. It's time for us to take off and leave things to you guys. Yes, 

[00:16:29] Fatimah Gilliam: they do. I'll say something interesting getting back to Roe versus Wade. So after Roe versus Wade was overturned as if we didn't already get a heads up, right?

[00:16:39] We got the heads up. The decision was leaked. But frankly, we didn't really need the decision to be leaked. Because you could have just looked at the court and known exactly how they would decide based on who they are as individuals, but fine. Some people still were shocked and I had plenty of friends and I'll just be blunt about it.

[00:17:00] Plenty of white female friends, who reached out to me and they're like, I can't believe this. I'm so shocked that they overturned this. And I was like, you needed to corral your fellow white women. Okay. As a black woman, I knew the assignment and I knew the assignment even before this. Because we were talking about race and you weren't paying attention to race.

[00:17:24] You were focusing on whatever And now you want me to join in as if I haven't already been focused on this But you weren't focused on it because you didn't really care about the rights of people of color. Now you see that this is a domino effect and they're coming for your womb and now you're calling me. I'm, like call your white friends the ones that you need to regroup with so that they should go up and vote 

[00:17:46] Mark M. Bello: You mentioned justice roberts and his opinion about Certain sections of the Voting Rights Act.

[00:17:55] We have one, obviously it's constitutional. Obviously, what is it that, on what basis that you probably said this, but I didn't hear it. On what basis are they skirting around these various sections of the Voting Rights Act? What is it, for instance, you mentioned Shelby and you mentioned Brunovich.

[00:18:16] What specifically did these cases, you said section 2 and section 4, but like you mentioned, I'm not a scholar in the Voting Rights Act. I just 

[00:18:29] wonder 

[00:18:29] Fatimah Gilliam: nor I, right? So I'm not 

[00:18:30] Mark M. Bello: No, I understand. 

[00:18:32] I understand. You said that. But I'm just wondering how they get to take a statute and decimate it like this.

[00:18:40] I 

[00:18:40] Fatimah Gilliam: honestly have not read the opinion for Shelby, nor for Ron up. However, you say that name. And 

[00:18:50] Mark M. Bello: so that 

[00:18:51] the people understand. It's spelled B-R-N-O-B-I-C-H. It's missing a vowel, so , we're having a little 

[00:18:58] Fatimah Gilliam: Right, and I wrote it down. Hold on. I did write down, isn't it? Probably. I did write it down.

[00:19:07] Yes, Brnobich 

[00:19:09] Mark M. Bello: but what is it that, how is it that they get around this stuff? It's black and white. It's a statute. It's a federal statute. How do they avoid its terms? 

[00:19:22] Fatimah Gilliam: I think it goes back to what I was saying before, that they have an agenda and they want to do what they want to do.

[00:19:29] So they will sometimes say, we have to follow precedent. And then when it doesn't suit their purpose, they're like, Oh, we don't have to follow precedent. And that's how you end up in a country that has these kinds of decisions. And honestly, this is to me. A repeat of many decisions that this country has had over time, right?

[00:19:46] We had Dred Scott. We had Plessy v. Ferguson, right? This country has had a long history of things that are morally bankrupt that infringe on people's rights, but yet they were perfectly legal. Legal in terms of what the court says, legal in terms of what a statute says. But that doesn't mean that it was an extreme miscarriage of justice and that it wasn't infringing upon what the principles are or what we think are the principles of what the U. S. Constitution stands for. If you really believe in what the Constitution stands for in terms of democracy and voting and freedom, then people should be allowed to have an abortion. People should be allowed to vote when they want to vote. I we seem to be so focused on. Voter fraud, right?

[00:20:37] With we need to have voter ID laws. No, we don't. They already verify you when you register. You can't just be like some random person. You still have to show like a bill or something, right? So you already verify yourself, but then they want to come up with all these extra hurdles because they know that they're not going to win on the issues.

[00:20:53] And instead they're focused on these kinds of distractions when people statistically have a greater chance of being struck by lightning than voter fraud happening.

[00:21:06] Bob Gatty: They've acknowledged that unless they do this they can't win an election. They've acknowledged that.

[00:21:12] Fatimah Gilliam: It's like a new form. It's a new form of the Southern strategy. 

[00:21:15] Bob Gatty: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:21:17] Now you mentioned a minute ago that the Voting Rights Act needs to be updated. As things change, do you feel like given the fact that the way Congress is these days and we have this divided government, there's any chance of that?

[00:21:35] Fatimah Gilliam: Honestly, I don't mean to sound like a Debbie Downer and a pessimist, but I'm also a realist. And I think the chance is exceptionally low unless people start mobilizing and galvanizing around voting or wanting to vote. Or encouraging people to vote because just look at what they're, focused on now.

[00:21:56] Just okay. So they got rid of George Santos, who is an utter embarrassment who should never have been a member of Congress. And it took 3 times to oust that guy and it really should have been like a no brainer. It's just from did he have a fake scam about somebody with cancer or something related to a dog.

[00:22:17] I can't even so many stories with him I can't keep track and then stole the money. Then you have like former roommates saying that he stole their clothes and their jewelry right there all of these accusations Before you even get to whether or not he lied and stole campaign funds, right? For Botox and Ferragamo and OnlyFans and porn and all of this kinds of stuff.

[00:22:38] And it took three times to get rid of him. 

[00:22:42] Mark M. Bello: What was it, only ten Republicans voted to oust him, right? 

[00:22:47] Fatimah Gilliam: It was a slim number. It should just, because they don't want to give up the majority. They're very slim majority. And it's like at a certain point, some people are just too questionable, too morally problematic, too dishonest to deserve the title of member of Congress.

[00:23:08] It's I feel like some of these people, it's they could walk in there and just stab some people and be like, okay. Okay. So you're back at work tomorrow because we need your vote. 

[00:23:18] Mark M. Bello: They're a disgrace. No question. 

[00:23:20] Fatimah Gilliam: They are. So to your question is is there going to be a change? Not until some people start waking up.

[00:23:27] It was interesting. I like to watch some of the videos by Jordan Klepper, who's on The Daily Show, and he has like his stories in the street, and he likes to go to a lot of rallies Trump rallies and interview people about basic things. And he was interviewing these two women who, this is like during the time, that Biden is now president and he's asking these two women who are going to go into this rally about January 6th.

[00:23:55] They had never heard of it. They had never heard of January 6th, what happened at the Capitol. And you have to be really trying hard to miss that one happened. Whether you agree or disagree, we don't even have to debate that, but just like you didn't even hear it happened. That one's tough.

[00:24:16] Mark M. Bello: Bob is a Democrat in South Carolina. Come on. Poor Bob. Yeah, the point you're making brings me to. What I think is the crux of this matter, and I want to get your opinion on The 2024 election is about to happen because of the Dobbs decision. We're going to see abortion on the ballot. We probably will be faced with another Trump versus Biden vote.

[00:24:45] Fatimah Gilliam: Unfortunately, 

[00:24:46] Mark M. Bello: and voting in 2024, especially has to be the most important thing we can do in November of 2024. I presume you consider voting a right, not a privilege. 

[00:25:02] Fatimah Gilliam: Correct. 

[00:25:03] Mark M. Bello: So I'm not even asked that question, but if it is a right, what can people do right now with this Supreme Court and this Republican Congress to make sure that they can vote in the upcoming 

[00:25:18] election?

[00:25:20] I 

[00:25:20] Fatimah Gilliam: think they have to start focusing on what's taking place locally, because it's at the local level that implements the regulations for voting, and I think they should reach out to the people in their state, their elected officials, to tell them that they have problems with the way restrictions are taking place, especially if they're in a place like Georgia, where it's like you can't give somebody water or food waiting in a long line, and that's supposed to be criminalized. And all of these like ridiculous regulations, people need to start being vocal. And they should also go out and encourage other people to vote and by maybe giving them a voter registration card.

[00:26:00] They should start signing people up, helping people register, helping people understand the process. There are so many people who don't even know what the deadlines are, right? Oh, I should go vote. Did you register? No, I didn't register. Did you realize you just missed the deadline? No, sorry, guess I can't vote.

[00:26:18] That's a situation for a lot of places and a lot of people. So what they should do is. Let their elected officials know that this is important to them, let them know that if they're going to restrict the right to vote, they're not going to vote them in. What they should also do is, like I said, get people to register, and then people should come for some of the companies, so if you look at the reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act in 2006 that was signed by George Bush. One of the things that was really helpful for the reauthorization was that corporations major corporations like a Disney, said that they thought this was important for it to be reauthorized. And so it was corporate pressure on the administration, on members of Congress to reauthorize it, and that needs to happen again, right? You also have a whole bunch of corporations that give money to elected officials who are 100 percent in support of restricting the right to vote. And so people should come for companies, people should put pressure on companies and companies should also put pressure.

[00:27:27] And if you don't like, some of the lobbying practices or donations that companies are making that don't buy their products and let them know that is why you're not buying their product. 

[00:27:37] Bob Gatty: Yeah. Okay. So what can people do? A lot of people don't even know where to go to.

[00:27:45] Register to vote or any of that. Have you got any advice as to what people can do to make sure that they qualify to vote? I 

[00:27:55] Fatimah Gilliam: don't remember the, like a website off of the top of my head, but I'm sure if they go to something like election protection, right? Google election protection, that there will be links that will take them to where they can register or just a basic search.

[00:28:09] Like. Where can I vote in my town? You know what I mean? And find that and then they'll figure out that will take them to whatever the paperwork is for their for their state to register to vote. Some places, you have to fill something in and mail it. I'm in New York. You can register to vote virtually.

[00:28:30] So each place is going to have its own regulation, and they're going to have to figure that out. But a very simple, Internet search will yield whatever information they need and worse come to worse, they can register to vote at the DMV. 

[00:28:45] Bob Gatty: Yeah, that's true, too. 

[00:28:48] Fatimah Gilliam: Yeah, they can go to the DMV.

[00:28:49] I'm sure they can go to some county office. They can download the form online, print it out, fill it out, and then send it off. The thing is we have these Take 

[00:29:00] this stuff seriously. Yeah, we have this right. We have this right that people have died for. And it's up to us. To decide whether or not we want to exercise that right.

[00:29:13] And I think it is so sad that people don't see the value of exercising their right to vote. I vote in every election, even like the dinky ones, right? Where you're like, okay, why do they have a primary in some random month in the summer? They just had a primary. Okay. So there's another election for some.

[00:29:34] I don't know what it is. And so then every time there's an election sometimes I don't know who these people are, okay, or what they're doing. So I, then I have to research it and figure out who they are and what they stand for because I'm proactively wanting to vote all the time and not miss anything.

[00:29:52] And then I try to educate myself and ask other people if it's someone that I don't know anything about I'll ask some questions. 

[00:29:59] Mark M. Bello: So if the only thing that's on the ballot is a local park is local park funding, you're there, right? 

[00:30:05] Fatimah Gilliam: Totally. I even put out, signs in my window to remind people that it's time to vote.

[00:30:12] Bob Gatty: Well, that's good. More people should do that. 

[00:30:15] Mark M. Bello: And that's so important. The, ladies and gentlemen, if your state or local government Put barriers in front of you, and you're a lower or middle income voter, do something about it protest I don't, I'm not talking about insurrection.

[00:30:34] Fatimah Gilliam: No, but it's hard to complain if you decide, if you elect to not even be a part of the process. It's like Lyndon Baines Johnson said a man without a vote is a man without protection and that is true, Right, in terms of being disenfranchised and then we also have Fannie Lou Hamer said I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired I personally I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired because it's not just that they're coming for people's right to vote But it's also very racist, so much of this is just racist because they don't want People of color that are not going to be on board with their agenda.

[00:31:10] They're going, they're trying to stop them and that is what's at the core of this, right? That it's not. And then so I know what's going on. I know that this is a multi pronged attack based on race. 

[00:31:24] Bob Gatty: Yeah, okay, 

[00:31:26] Mark M. Bello: really sad part about what you just said is Bob and I are old enough to remember him saying.

[00:31:32] Lyndon Johnson, but anyway I want to 

[00:31:34] Fatimah Gilliam: and his arm had to be twisted for him to even get on board with the Voting Rights Act. 

[00:31:41] Mark M. Bello: Oh, my God, read some of the books about, about how that came about and the transition from Kennedy to Johnson and what Johnson would or would not do and how Martin Luther King twisted his arm and all of that.

[00:31:53] It's great stuff. I've often said that fact is great is more entertaining than fiction. We're running out of time and I want to make sure we talk about your book. It's called Race Rules, What Your Black Friend Won't Tell You. Does the book answer some of the questions we've been asking today?

[00:32:14] Is it a blueprint for citizens who want to ensure that they have the right vote in 2024? 

[00:32:20] Fatimah Gilliam: It does explain a lot about voting rights. To give a quick overview of the book, it has a bunch of rules. So it's a how to guide to drive equity and to make better choices and to drive behavioral change.

[00:32:34] So it's written predominantly for a white audience, although it's. It's useful for everyone, and it has a bunch of rules. So it's an advice book. When you think about a lot of books that are written out there that are helpful, that talk about race and racism, I think they're great in the sense that they give people a sense and an understanding of what racism is and how it shows up in society.

[00:32:55] And then what, the part that I see that's lacking is the how to advice the unvarnished truth. Understanding of how certain decisions impact people of color and how people can make better decisions to minimize the harm against people of color. And so that's 1 of the reasons why I wrote this book and I'll tell you the germination for this story.

[00:33:19] I started writing race rules in August of 2018, and I was watching the news. And it was another story of a Karen going viral for calling the police for no reason. And as I watched that story, I started thinking about my lived experiences. I started thinking about some of my diversity consulting work, some of the repetitive questions that people and companies ask me over and over again.

[00:33:48] And I also started thinking about the things that white people say around me when they don't realize I'm black. And so as I watched this news story, I thought white people need a manual, they need a manual. I'm going to write that. I'm going to write that. I'm going to write that manual for them. And so it's, it has 31 different rules.

[00:34:13] Voting is just one of the chapters, right? So I talk about cultural appropriation, tokenism, defining racism. The N word. There are just so many different chapters in there. I talk about white privilege. I talk about a concept that a new term that I define white welfare, which I call the ultimate entitlement program for white people.

[00:34:33] And it's how they got a lot of the wealth in this country and still maintain wealth. And it's a driver for racial wealth gaps. I discuss white liberals and some of the terrible decisions that they make. And that are also harmful. So it's written in a choose your own race, knowledge, adventure, people can hop to the chapters that are relevant for them that they need to understand something.

[00:34:56] It's written in a eye catchy way it has illustrations in it. So I really tried to give something to people that is. That is helpful and it's the quiet part out loud, the reality is a lot of times white people will have an encounter with a person of color and the two people could walk away with two divergent impressions about how that encounter went down.

[00:35:17] They could be thinking, the white person can say, okay, we're okay with each other. We'll cool with each other. And maybe there was a misunderstanding, but that's okay, we worked it out and then the person of color can walk away saying, I can't stand this person, I can't believe that I have to work with them, that they're going to be in the next meeting, that they are going to be at Thanksgiving dinner, that they're going to be at the banquet or barbecue this weekend.

[00:35:46] And so what I'm trying to do, I am ripping off the band aid. And trying to explain things because I don't think the diplomatic approach is helpful. 

[00:35:57] Mark M. Bello: I'm definitely the second guy.

[00:35:59] Fatimah Gilliam: And if you want to, it's up to you. I'm not pushing this on you. It'll probably take three minutes, but if you want me to read you like a little, like one of my favorite passages, I'd be more than happy to do that. Bob? 

[00:36:12] Bob Gatty: Yeah, I'd like to hear that. I was going to ask you if you could tell us what black, what do black folks say and feel about what about white folks?

[00:36:23] Fatimah Gilliam: A lot of what they say is we are not cool with what just went down. And we may not be saying that to your face. And even with our friends, it was interesting as I had been writing this book, one of my friends, You know, asked me, she said, do you think every white person is racist?

[00:36:42] And I said, yes, I do. I think it's impossible not to be not racist, but people are on a spectrum, and then as a follow up to that, I said, yes, and that does mean, she's asking me this question. I was like, that means you too as my friend, as somebody who I see as in my circle of trust I have to say that I cannot make a statement like that.

[00:37:03] And that doesn't apply to you too. But it's, but like I say, there's a spectrum. You've got the white nationalists, and then you have the person who's like really trying to do positive things, but sometimes they'll make mistakes or not understand something. And it's like my analogy for it is does the fish notice the water that it swims through that is vital to its existence that it breathes in every single day. But yet it needs that water to stay alive. And I see society as being the same. We are surrounded by byproducts and aspects of racism every day that we breathe in when we turn on the TV, when we read an article, it shows up everywhere.

[00:37:45] So it's impossible to fully escape it unless somehow we evolve. So I think one of the things that a lot of people of color. I can't say, I speak for everyone, a lot of us think that it's impossible not to be racist on some level. Not intentionally. 

[00:38:03] Mark M. Bello: It's like the little song in avenue Q if you saw it.

[00:38:07] Fatimah Gilliam: Oh, 

[00:38:07] everyone's a little bit racist. 

[00:38:08] Mark M. Bello: Everyone's a little bit 

[00:38:10] But it's not something to think about. 

[00:38:12] Bob Gatty: Does that go for black people too? Are black people racist against white people? 

[00:38:17] Fatimah Gilliam: No, I don't think that's possible. So I have a chapter where I say, everyone is prejudiced, but not everyone is racist.

[00:38:24] And so what is a critical ingredient to transition from racial prejudice? Because yes, everyone is racially prejudiced on some level, but for to transition into racism is you need collective and societal power for it to become impactful. And so I do discuss that and talk about it in one of my earlier chapters and in the first part of the book where I want people to move away from exceptionalism, right?

[00:38:51] Like it's always I want people to expand their definition of what they see as racist. They want to think that the racist is the person who shows up at the supermarket with an AR 15 and intentionally shoots every person of color that they can see. And then that is what racism is, right? The person burning crosses that shows up with the white hood, the unite the right tiki torch person.

[00:39:13] That is their definition. Not the person who votes for zoning laws that make it impossible or difficult for people of color to move into certain communities that uphold segregation, right? In the Northeast, some of the most segregated parts of the country, right? People making decisions every day or yeah, that's problematic, but I don't want to get involved.

[00:39:35] Okay. So you're a status quo, or you're supporting complicity. You're standing on the side of making supporting a problem. To answer your question. No, I don't think that I don't think black people can be racist. Okay, until they have more power. Okay. But I would love to read you this section to give you a flavor of my writing.

[00:39:58] This is for my chapter where the, this is the rule, because they're all, the book is all a bunch of rules. And so the chapter is, the rule is, it's not personal when people of color don't want to discuss race.

[00:40:10] And then I explain why that's the case, and I go into that, and then at the end of the chapter, I have this analogy. And when I write in my book, the you in my writing is a white person. So what it's like talking to you about race. Let's put this in perspective, recall life living in the pandemic. Do you remember that haunting feeling you felt that never went away?

[00:40:35] That the virus was lurking at every corner? You couldn't escape it because there were reminders everywhere, on the news, online, in social media, and when you saw your neighbors or people on the street. You felt a sense of omnipresence as you walked around, always on high alert, looking at others, seeing if they wore masks, looked ill or coughed.

[00:40:55] You noticed them, and observed how they reacted to you. You were in constant fear of your death. Loved ones may die or did die, and you felt perpetual anxiety. Your mental health was impacted along with your physical health from the stress. You had trouble sleeping. You weren't even safe in your own home because the virus could come to your door.

[00:41:16] You didn't know if you could trust the government, or if officials had your best interests at heart, unsure if they would do something to kill you. You felt powerless as if there were nothing you could do to change things to make your life better. Since you weren't in control, you had to resign yourself to your circumstance, but you didn't want to accept your reality.

[00:41:33] You wanted to resist and somehow make things better. When you tried, you didn't succeed. That's what it's like living under racism every day. 24 7, 365. Racism is a pervasive, invisible force just like COVID. There's no escape. It's constant, never a break or reprieve. It's isolating and marginalizing. It attacks your life.

[00:41:57] Bank account, livelihood, housing, healthcare, schools, and dinner table, and separates your family. You want the government to do something about it, but politicians want you to laissez faire your way to non solutions, absolving themselves of responsibility, willfully blind to its impact. You suck it up. You deal with big picture systemic issues.

[00:42:19] Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Heal yourself. Pave your destiny. Avoid your own death or murder. Welcome to living like a black or brown person in America. But with racism, there's no vaccine coming. No magic pill to inoculate society. This is what it's been like since the 1500s. It isn't getting better.

[00:42:40] There are new strains, new waves, and invisible resurgences. Mutating. Reinventing itself. Seemingly dormant, but always there stalking, ready to strike and viciously kill. This is the reality. It's bleak when you want to discuss racism. Sometimes people of color only want to discuss it with those who understand what they've gone through, not white folks who will trivialize things, which is akin to speaking to an anti masker who berates innocent and defenseless store clerks.

[00:43:08] That's you questioning racism and their experiences. You're the anti masker anti vaxxer in the conversation. When you come with covert microaggressions, overt aggression, a lack of knowledge and a rejection of facts. Now, can you understand why no one wants to talk to you? They're already too busy trying to literally survive.

[00:43:31] That's my excerpt. 

[00:43:33] Bob Gatty: Okay. Mark. 

[00:43:35] Mark M. Bello: And when you get to a certain point in life, you become what white people call a credit to your race, right? 

[00:43:43] Fatimah Gilliam: There are plenty of people who think that, I must not have experienced racism or I'm like one of the good ones because I went to Wellesley, Harvard and Columbia and somehow don't fit some sort of profile of what they expect black achievement is supposed to look like, or, or maybe because I'm light skinned, I haven't experienced all kinds of discrimination, which is very antithetical to the reality.

[00:44:08] Mark M. Bello: As a Jewish guy who, doesn't wear it on my skin. I've experienced it a lot, especially lately. I'm not equating the two, but minorities just, have to suck it up, I is the best way I can say it. I don't know. You argue in, I think in your book that self-education without behavioral change is half... what do we need to do? What behavioral change is necessary? What does appropriate self-education look like? 

[00:44:41] Fatimah Gilliam: I think, we have to be constantly educating ourselves, especially when it comes to issues around race. I think a lot of times people say okay, I did that. I put in my, I watched that documentary.

[00:44:53] I went to that protest. I voted. And I'm good. And then I can just coast and there is no coasting, right? So the analogy that I just read shows that this is for people of color, like they're living it every day. There is no vacation from racism. You want to relax and watch a movie and you can't even get away from it.

[00:45:13] You're going to then have to watch like a white savior trope movie where it's always, oh, a person of color being saved by a white person, and therefore, then it's an acceptable film to get green lit by Hollywood. You can't even escape it with that, and so my point is that yes.

[00:45:29] I want people to self educate, but I want them to also recognize that it is a continual self improvement cycle that they need to address and accept as a lifelong journey because things are going to change and nothing is stagnant, right? Even if you look at just terminology, right? So you go from Negro to black to Afro American to African American to black terminology is going to change.

[00:45:56] So people need to like, stay up to date on that. Or even like LGBT issues. Like, when I was growing up, you couldn't say queer like that was offensive. Now people are saying queer. Now I have to adjust to make sure that I'm using whatever terminology for people in that group feel that is acceptable for them.

[00:46:15] If we want to be people who evolve and don't stay stick in the mud right over time, we have to say, we need a continual commitment. And I think there are enough markers over the course of a year to remind people that they should self educate, right? You're going to have, there's always something coming down the pike, right?

[00:46:37] It's going to be like Martin Luther King Day. Okay. Use that as an opportunity to learn something. Black History Month, Women's History Month, you're going to have Holocaust Remembrance Day of Remembrance for the Japanese that we, Japanese Americans that we interned. You'll, lots of groups have their moment.

[00:46:52] Treat those moments as time to say, this is my moment to educate myself about another group of people. Because it's coming every year. It's there's always something. 

[00:47:03] Bob Gatty: Okay. We want to thank you for, Fatima, for being with us on this on our podcast. Where can people 

[00:47:12] find your book?

[00:47:14] Fatimah Gilliam: It is available on Amazon, Barnes Noble on my author, the, my publisher's website, Barrett Kohler. So wherever people go to find books, they can they can buy it. 

[00:47:26] Bob Gatty: Okay, what's your publisher's website? 

[00:47:29] Fatimah Gilliam: Barrett Kohler. Oh gosh, I think it's BKConnection. com. Okay. I can't remember it off the top of my head, but if they were, if they Google Fatima Gilliam and race rules, they'll find the book.

[00:47:40] Okay, 

[00:47:40] fine. All right. Thanks so muc