Dr. Emily Bashah-Anti-Semitism, Addictive Ideologies, and the War in Israel

Show Transcript

Dr. Emily Bashah: Antisemitism & Addictive Ideologies

[00:00:00] Bob Gatty: With violent extremism on the rise in the United States and around the world, many of us are tempted to simply write off extremists as beyond help. But according to licensed clinical psychologist and extremism expert, Dr. Emily Bashah the lack of understanding around what causes extremism is simply adding fuel to the fire.

[00:00:21] She's our guest for the second time on the Lean to the Left and Justice Counts podcasts with my co- host, thriller author, Mark Gambello. So stay with us. 

[00:00:32] Now, Dr. Bashaw was awarded the Society for the Psychological Study of Social Issues Policy Fellowship and served within the American Psychological Association's Public Interest Government Relations Office in Washington, D. C. She's co author of the highly praised book, Addictive Ideologies, which we discussed in some detail in our initial episodes, which are still available on both the Lean to the Left and Justice Counts podcasts. She frequently serves as an expert witness in civil and criminal courts and has worked on high profile cases covering issues of domestic terrorism and capital offenses.

[00:01:16] Thanks, Emily, for joining us for our podcast. 

[00:01:20] Dr. Emily Bashah: Thank you so much, Bob and Mark, for having me. I really appreciate it. 

[00:01:24] Bob Gatty: Hey, Mark, would you like to kick this off, my friend?

[00:01:27] Mark M. Bello: Sure. Emily as Bob indicated, thanks for being here. We appreciate it. Especially now, Israel's at war in the Gaza Strip.

[00:01:34] Students are protesting all over the country. There's a rise in anti Semitism and Islamophobia in America. And I'm wondering if you consider these anti semitism and Islamophobia as addictive ideologies. 

[00:01:56] Dr. Emily Bashah: Yeah, that's a really great question. Just to back up a little bit and inform your listeners where I'm coming from and the position I'm in.

[00:02:05] So in our book, Paul and I examine genocides, terrorism, and extremism worldwide. We saw issues rising nationally with growing extremism, and I was even seeing essence and elements of that exposed in the work that I do in the forensic setting, people who identify with incel ideology or extreme on the alt right or more extreme on the woke left and willing to commit violent acts for the sake of their ideologies.

[00:02:39] Now these are really radical people on both ends, knowing that there's really a diverse range of people who maybe fall on the spectrum, I want to be cautious not to say, okay, all people are like this. In fact, when Paul and I looked at what are the primary linking factors of all these genocides, extremism and terrorism across the world, we found that they were linked to an ideology.

[00:03:09] And this radical form of ideology really places people into an in group and an out group. And people who view themselves as a victim were more willing to justify and Oppressed those that they saw as the oppressor. The danger in the psychology of that process is you begin to dehumanize the out group member or the outsider and you also label them and see them all as homogenous.

[00:03:36] So all Muslims are the same. All Jews are the same. Whoever you place in that out group, all You want to say like liberals and Democrats are the same. All Republicans and alt right and MAGA members are the same. And you just lump them into that category. The danger of that is there is this addictive process that is part of it.

[00:03:58] So you tend people who join those groups tend to surround themselves with people who are more like minded. They're also searching online for information that is more Confirming these beliefs and even if they're confronted with facts to discount some of their beliefs or help to bring them more towards the middle and to be less biased, they're more willing to discount it and that further trends them in that direction where it's really solidifying those belief system, making them more immune to engaging in conversations with people they disagree with or who think differently than them. And it's polarizing them more to the end. And what we're seeing is people are willing to commit acts of violence as a result of it. So going back to your question with who are the people that are more willing to engage in acts of some anti Semitism, because there's a difference between having the belief versus actually acting on it. And same with Islamophobia. The question is, how does one get to the point of condoning violence towards out group members? And where are they willing to stop?

[00:05:15] The danger with tribalism... I'm not saying that tribalism is inherently bad in itself, but when it pushes one towards those extremism where they're allowing themselves to be more radicalized, that's when it becomes really dangerous because they're less likely to see the wrongdoing of their group and just blame the other side because that's part of our psychology.

[00:05:42] It's part of being human. We want to find a quick cure or a quick resolution. What do I do with this? This is wrong. Beheading of babies is wrong. Who do I blame? Let me just point the finger. 

[00:05:55] Bob Gatty: Okay. What can America do you believe to combat anti Semitism in this country? 

[00:06:03] Dr. Emily Bashah: There's a lot of information that is being shared on social media and TikTok and Facebook and X.

[00:06:10] And even in the nightly news, there's a lot of distorted information. My concern is that people are listening and looking for things that are just going to confirm their bias and they're less likely to engage in conversations or be open and understanding about how am I contributing to hate in this world?

[00:06:35] What am I doing to propel and perpetuate violence and not engage in difficult dialogue because that makes me feel safe. I think a lot of this is really anxiety driven. And people have reasons to be quite angry. The risk is, the group of people who really see themselves as victims that's a dangerous group.

[00:07:03] That's the group that needs really the intervention. And if there are people that you can find that are more in the middle or moderate range, even if they're blaming the other side, but they're still Allowing themselves to be open and educated and have difficult discourse with people who think differently, then we can find some common ground and be able to have rational conversations.

[00:07:30] But when you're engaging in arguments or discourse where people just want to prove their point, prove that they're right, absolve themselves of any wrongdoing, absolve their group of any wrongdoing, and just overpower you, you're not able to have a sensible, rational conversation. And even on the other side, if people are just cancelling you, or rejecting you, or not even pushing you outside or canceling you on your social media or not willing to engage in conversations that I mean, that is also problematic. How are we going to grow? How are we going to challenge ourselves to be able to see? Maybe I was wrong in the way that I was viewing this group.

[00:08:15] How can I further dissect the subgroups within this group. So I'm not just seeing them all as homogenous and how am I perpetuating hate and how is that driven by fear and misunderstanding and xenophobia? Yeah. 

[00:08:33] Mark M. Bello: Spoken, spoken like a true psychologist. I Want to push back a little bit.

[00:08:37] When I was a kid, we moved from an all Jewish neighborhood to a Christian neighborhood and a kid walked up to me and asked me what church I went to, and I responded, I don't go to church, I go to synagogue. He punched me in the mouth and knocked me to the ground. There couldn't have been a more innocent question, or an innocent person asking the question, than me.

[00:09:00] And, when you've been punched in the mouth with it, you know what an anti Semite looks like. I agree with you, that we can tone down the rhetoric, and talk to each, we should tone down the rhetoric and talk to each other. But a person can know an antisemite when he sees one, right?

[00:09:21] Or when he encounters one. 

[00:09:23] Dr. Emily Bashah: Yes. Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that point up. I think that there's degrees that people fall on the spectrum and dimensions. I had a difficult situation recently where an extended family member I felt was having antisemitic views and it was really concerning because this is a person I love, I care about.

[00:09:48] I definitely don't want to cancel them out of my life. We've traveled the world together. They love my child. And I love them, but I started to see as they were trying to make sense of what was happening in Gaza that they were blaming the Jewish population. And it became evident to me that they were sympathizing for Palestinians, but then encapsulating Hamas as a group that represents Palestinians. And this is problematic. This is what I'm saying. You have to learn to disentangle separate subgroups rather than seeing them all as homogenous. And so I can say, yes, it's possible to have compassion for an innocent Palestinian child who Is terrorized and their family and their world is being uprooted and terrorized by what is happening and who is to blame when you try and find a simple solution, and this is what was happening with a family member. They were obtaining their information from TikTok, which we know is created by China, which we know has an agenda that is really anti Semitic driven. And so of course, they're going to be censoring their content. And so I chose to confront in a really loving, caring, respectful way, my family member.

[00:11:19] And and there are ways to do this, and I'm happy to talk through this. It was challenging for me. I had to really think about what is my priority. What is most important for me? How would this be a success if I walked away from this conversation with this family member that supported me to think that, okay, we had a successful, meaningful conversation.

[00:11:42] The most important thing to me was preserving our family relationship because I'm placing value in family. And I also wanted to know if that person is becoming antisemitic because that's important to me that's going to inform my trust or distrust of this person. And so I had a very honest conversation.

[00:12:05] I set it up. It took me, maybe two weeks to grapple what was going on, get some more information get a sense of. What are the facts that I'm bringing in not relying on hearsay, only relying on my own personal experience with this family member. And I asked them, I said, can we meet just one on one?

[00:12:26] There's some things I really would love to discuss with you. And we met and I think it was a really fruitful conversation. I was very direct. I said when I was over here the other day, these were things that you said. This was what I observed. This is what I know to be true about you. Are you anti Semitic?

[00:12:42] Are you becoming anti Semitic? Do you hold anti Semitic views? I said, based on what I'm here to . obtain and hopefully reach today. I'm not trying to challenge your views, but I'm hoping that we can have conversations about it so I can at least explain and share and inform and educate.

[00:13:04] But you also have the right to think differently. And my agenda is not to make you think like I think. I'm hoping that we can have enough trust and respect and love in our relationship and we're making that the priority so that we can have these difficult conversations and you can ask me questions and not feel like you're going to be rejected or humiliated, but that I can have a chance to explain my side to give you and educate you and provide you with information and I expressed my concerns of that family member deriving majority of their media content and news content from TikTok. 

[00:13:46] Mark M. Bello: But how do you apply that more broadly in a college campus situation where you have multiple protesters on two sides of an issue going at each other and someone holds up a sign with a Star of David in a trash can? That sign has nothing to do with the Palestinian Israeli conflict.

[00:14:09] That's anti Semitism. How do you separate the wheat from the chaff? 

[00:14:13] Dr. Emily Bashah: I think in general, people project what is happening internally and intrapsychically onto these politicized issues. I think that absolutely there needs to be justice. I think that there needs to be good leadership. I believe that universities need to be stronger and more courageous in taking a stance and modeling for their student body, what is permissible, what is not permissible what does intellectual discourse look like, and Being able to say what they're not willing to accept on their campuses and why. I think there's a lot of growth to be had in leadership right now, too, and that concerns me but also universities and student bodies.

[00:15:09] Sure. I think that if you look at the students individually that they're, they should be held accountable and they have to take responsibility and, but who's going to test them? Who's going to promote that justice in the university campuses if the leadership in the universities aren't willing to do anything about it or take a stand?

[00:15:29] And so they are also blameworthy in this. I think. Being able to see it because I work so much with individually, individuals in forensic settings, and you can see how people might have started here and then they gravitate slowly more and more to those extreme polarized ends. I think the danger, especially what I'm seeing on this issue is that you have people who are pro Palestinian who see in oppressed group, then they start projecting their own perceptions of victimization, and they're angry about it, and they want to point the finger and blame someone, and it becomes a convenient excuse and a model to be able to say it must be Israel's fault because they're the colonizer.

[00:16:17] They're the oppressor, and that's the argument on the left side. On the right side, you have the arguments of white privilege and then 

[00:16:26] Mark M. Bello: the extreme, the extreme left, but go ahead,

[00:16:29] Dr. Emily Bashah: . You've got extreme left and extreme right. Antisemitic views on both sides. True. Whether you see them as participating in white genocide because we're immigrants and not entirely like pure white.

[00:16:43] At the other side, on the extreme left that the Jews are part of Israel and you're seeing Israel as part of the oppressors and the colonizers. Either side, we're getting anti Semitism. I think the danger is if you have a person or in a student in the university campuses who wants to defend human rights, but they're not entirely appreciating or understanding this conflict to the depth, and they're not willing to do the critical analysis and that deeper work.

[00:17:13] Of questioning and they're just joining a group because they want something to fight for. They want something to defend and they want someone to blame. And they're not going to stop at any end or means in order to do that. And so that's the concern I have with what's happening. And again, you're starting to see I'm pro Palestinian.

[00:17:34] Hamas represents Palestine. Therefore I must be pro Hamas. Therefore I must be anti Israel. And that is their logic and they're not disentangling these relationships. I'm saying it is okay to have sympathy and empathy for the innocent Palestinian child who has nothing to do with this conflict. And yet Hamas is exploiting them as a military terrorist organization, pseudo political.

[00:18:03] But they've got their own agenda in this and they're just exploiting Palestinians for their own political. agitation. And that is what is driving these massacres and the attacks that occurred in Israel on October 7th. They are political agitators. That is the motive of a terrorist. And it is happening on a broad scale.

[00:18:27] The concern is when the public is consuming misinformation and propaganda. They're now allowing themselves to be deceived and relinquishing their agency. Paul and I write about this in our book. We talk about it on our podcast, The Optimistic American. How do you maintain your agency when you're being pulled in all of these different directions.

[00:18:50] And a lot of this is thinking rationally, not allowing yourself to be controlled by the amygdala hijack. Because once we have a lot of information and there's a lot of visual content that is being thrown at us, again, like unsure, With information coming out of Palestine. We really can't trust the Palestinian government because they are Hamas.

[00:19:12] The information that they're giving us is not trustworthy, and it's hard to really get accurate data out of Palestine right now. I'm not saying that horrific things aren't occurring there, but we just don't know that. Palestinian government is not a reliable trustworthy source of authority.

[00:19:31] Hamas is in control of Palestine right now. So we really have to be able to exercise our judgment. 

[00:19:38] Bob Gatty: What are your thoughts about Israel being portrayed as the aggressor rather than the defender in this case? 

[00:19:46] Dr. Emily Bashah: I think historically. People have been asking me this, why is there so always been so much anti Semitism historically?

[00:19:56] What is it about the Jews that they become the scapegoat in so many historical contexts? And it's inevitable, like we're, If you look even at my family story, so I am an Arab Jew, my parents escaped from persecution out of Baghdad during the time of the Ba'ath party, when Saddam Hussein was rising to power in 1941, we suffered the farhood, which was the violent dispossession.

[00:20:24] It's a pogrom. And we saw these horrific. type of atrocities, the same kind of sadistic massacres that we saw on October 7th where women who were pregnant, their bellies were cut open, fetuses were pulled out and Jewish people were mutilated and dismembered. Same thing that we saw on October 7th.

[00:20:48] I don't know if your audience has heard. Babies were beheaded, even Hamas was putting babies in ovens and killing them, burning them alive. There, there are horrific stories that, that I'm hearing on a day to day basis from family members directly who are talking about what has happened to their family in Israel.

[00:21:11] And it's horrific. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of injustice that has been committed. And I think it's important to see Hamas is showing you what it's capable of doing on a larger scale. If it's given the opportunity to rule and that's what it wants. All of this political tension and Aggravation and forcing people to take sides. That is something so shocking to me right now, like talking to people who are really not informed. They're not invested in becoming informed. They really want to get on with living their lives. They know this is a conflict that's happening in the Middle East, but yet they're taking a position there.

[00:21:57] They're allowing themselves to take a position while being misinformed and uninformed. And so this is shocking to me to see because automatically people are going, are you pro-Israel? Are you pro-Palestine? If you're pro-Palestine, you must be pro Hamas. So which are, you? Pick a side. And I think honestly, this is a time people want to know who's gonna defend them? Who's gonna die for them? Who is willing to die for them? And this is a time to really express that to people that you love and care about. I feel like I didn't answer your question exactly. Sorry. I went on a tangent because I'm very passionate about this topic, obviously. Do you mind repeating your question?

[00:22:37] I feel like that wasn't really fair of me. 

[00:22:40] Bob Gatty: I just asked you how you felt about Israel being portrayed as the aggressor rather than the defender, uh, in all of this. 

[00:22:50] Dr. Emily Bashah: Yeah I think that is a great question. I think, so where I was going with this is, Jews have never had a homeland up until the development in the state of Israel.

[00:23:01] We never had something to defend aside from our own ethnic, religious, spiritual, racial identity. And so we learned to uproot ourselves in order to survive. Because it wasn't worth staying to defend until the state of Israel was created and Israel will stop at nothing. Israel will not, Israelis will not give up Israel.

[00:23:34] It's just full stop.

[00:23:37] Mark M. Bello: So that's not going to happen. 

[00:23:39] Dr. Emily Bashah: No. And I think we've never historically been seen as warriors. We've been seen as intellectual. We strive for a high education. We take our knowledge with us wherever we go and whatever we do, wherever we are, it must be a transferable skillset, whether you're a doctor or a lawyer or whatever.

[00:24:04] I, I know there's a lot of stigmas and stereotypes surrounding Jews, but the important thing is. We must survive. We are a race that must survive. And after the Holocaust, after what my parents had been through, this is ingrained in our social identity, survival till the end.

[00:24:25] And it definitely develops the strength and resilience. But since the development of the state of Israel. I think that now, we are Israel. Israel in general is seen as the aggressor.. There's no excuse for what Hamas did. There's the what about isms.

[00:24:45] Hamas did this, but what about what Israel did? What about when Israel did this in this time? What Hamas committed at the massacre on October 7th so far supersedes any kind of political conversation 

[00:25:01] Mark M. Bello: or military response. 

[00:25:03] Dr. Emily Bashah: Yes. I think it was just so far. Surpass. There is no excuse for it. And I think it's inevitable.

[00:25:12] Of course, Israel is going to respond. Israel has a right to respond. Israel has a need to respond. And I hope and I believe You know, Israel will be unified and strengthened as a result of this. 

[00:25:27] Mark M. Bello: From a psychological point of view, as a pro, what do you think was on Hamas mind? They had to know that Israel was going to react the way they did.

[00:25:41] What do you think the endgame is for Hamas? 

[00:25:45] Dr. Emily Bashah: I think going inside of the psyche of a terrorist, there is a motive. And I think being able to see what has happened in building up and leading up to this, it was politically primed. Saudi Arabia was making a deal with Israel, with the assistance of the United States.

[00:26:08] It also fell on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, a multi front war in Israel. And it was timely., it was opportunistic for Hamas and Hamas in my mind, and I encourage people to also extract this, they do not represent the Palestinian people. And I think that's important because they're using Palestinians as their human shield. They're putting their weapons underneath hospitals. They use children as their human shields. They're shooting from children's schools. They're shooting from mosques. This is a tactic that has always been common to Hamas. And yet, Israel has to be the one who's held accountable. But yet Hamas is not held accountable to the same degree by the international community. And I think there is a place for fairness and there's a place for justice and accountability and agency. And I think it was timely for Hamas. And again, they're using Palestinians for their own political propaganda.

[00:27:21] And unfortunately, in some ways they have achieved this. They've fuller polarized the world in saying, Are you with the Arab nation or against it? Whereas we shouldn't even be asking this 

[00:27:34] Mark M. Bello: question. Do you think Hamas underestimated Israel's response?

[00:27:39] Dr. Emily Bashah: No, I don't think so. I think Hamas is fully capable of appreciating and knowing the response but they're really leaning on the support from Iran and. Hasbullah and hoping that other Arab countries and nations will come in support and, making the call on the Shabbat following on the Friday, following a call to the world, saying that you have to kill any Jews that you can, and calling upon people to support them.

[00:28:18] All of that is part of this. political propaganda as a political agitator.

[00:28:25] Bob Gatty: You say that more and more seemingly reasonable individuals are falling into the trap of violent extremism and are lured In by compelling conspiracy theories and a feeling of control that they have when they engage with extremist ideologies. Can you elaborate on that?

[00:28:44] How does that relate to what we're talking about? 

[00:28:47] Dr. Emily Bashah: So the process of radicalization doesn't just happen overnight, there really needs to be this emotional and psychological investment into such an ideology. And if you're a person that believes that there's something that you've lost and there's something that you're angry about, especially resentment, we see psychological resentment as such a a combining localizer and factor across this and that victimized perception.

[00:29:20] You're going to be more lured in to propaganda on social media, misinformation. In fact, you might even be looking for it because it just helps to be affirming and validating for what you already feel is true. And this is what we call it's emotional reasoning. It's distortion. and so it's really hard to see and extract some of the facts when you're pulled into that.

[00:29:47] Again, one of the main factors is viewing oneself as a victim that belongs to this oppressed group and seeing the outgroup as the perpetrator and the oppressor. So that dehumanization and vilification of the outgroup is the next step, which also supports these violent ends and extremist acts.

[00:30:06] It's not dissimilar to what happened and could further perpetuate what's happening here in the US with the fuller polarizations between, the extreme radical right and extreme radical left. I think there's this social divide. That is totally fractured even to our social communal level. It's even fracturing families and relationships campuses, university.

[00:30:31] It's impacting our education in the university campuses. So we have to really be aware that tribalism in itself isn't inherently bad, but it becomes extremist based on this theory of cognitive dissonance. That's when you seek to reduce tension created by a conflict that exists between behaviors and values.

[00:30:54] Mark M. Bello: If you're, I don't know, most important view is opposite a group of extremists. Would you say that, uh, not trying to understand those extremists might actually encourage their extremism?

[00:31:17] Dr. Emily Bashah: I'm not entirely sure. Do you mind giving me an example?

[00:31:22] Mark M. Bello: You have to understand the other side of any argument, correct? Yes. If you fail to understand the other side, and you simply become... An extremist for the opposite point of view. Yes.

[00:31:37] Does failing to understand their point of view encourage more extremism?

[00:31:45] Dr. Emily Bashah: Think by understanding another person's point of view is not the same as saying I agree with that person's point of view. Those are two very different things. You can still disagree with the ideology. And still be willing to understand how that person got there. So just as an example I'm a Jewish Arab, I have a lot of compassion for innocent Palestinians and Jews who were terrorized during the massacre, condoned by Hamas and by the world in some respect.

[00:32:32] And that is heartbreaking. Does it mean that I become an Arab hater? Wouldn't I just be another example of that very thing that I am in opposition of and against, and how do I protect myself from becoming resentful and hating? When everything is there laid out in front of me and every rationale and reason for me to become rageful and violent and angry and resentful is there.

[00:33:06] It's tied to me. I have family in Israel. I've family members who are serving in the military. They're members of my community. I'm one person removed from somebody who was at the concert, which is about peace and love who were massacred. And just slaughtered like sheep, and in no way able to defend themselves, laying there helplessly, hoping that they won't be killed, and they were killed.

[00:33:37] Knowing that there are children who are held hostage right now in Gaza, I have every reason to hate Hamas. And yet, do I want to hate the Arab nation? Do I want to hate my Muslim friends? Do I want to hate and blame the Muslims in my community? I think that would be an injustice. Because I'm not saying that they represent Hamas.

[00:34:04] I've done that internal work to separate them. And I'm encouraging people to do the same. 

[00:34:11] Mark M. Bello: What a unique perspective you have Arab, Arab Jew sounds like an oxymoron. 

[00:34:16] Bob Gatty: Yeah, it sure does. 

[00:34:17] Dr. Emily Bashah: I have both the victim and the oppressor within.

[00:34:20] Bob Gatty: What are some common misconceptions, Emily, about violent extremists?

[00:34:27] Dr. Emily Bashah: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think, again, the risk is, my mind goes to the kind of ultra woke left and cancel culture and saying, I see myself as a victim of white privilege and I'm a marginalized ethnic minority and I want a chance to be able to see my narrative and my voice be exercised and in order to empower my people, I have to drown out the white majority dominant voice. And the only means I know to do that is to attack their credibility, cancel them out. Change the way that history was written, change the way that we're honoring history and teaching history. And not even from challenging the facts, but to really place myself as the minority in there, in that story.

[00:35:39] The challenge is that they're just using the same mechanism that they're arguing against. And here they are as a minority, and they just want to oppress the majority. And I'm thinking, isn't that exactly what you are arguing against? And you're utilizing the same mechanism. That is not going to be lasting change towards, that's a pro social change that is going to be helping in any way. In fact, it's going to be more harmful and damaging. And of course the history is imperfect. Point out those imperfections. There were heroes in our history who owned slaves. They weren't perfect. They committed adultery. They weren't perfect. And yet they moved the social justice.

[00:36:40] To continue to move it towards the side of promoting equality and human rights and equal rights. Are we willing to just throw all of that away in order to condemn those forefathers and our leaders and our historical figures? I think we can hold them accountable. But, it's important not to be totally dismissive.

[00:37:07] One thing Paul and I write about in our book is the good and evil exists in all of us. The good and evil exists because we are human and we have the ability to exercise free will and agency. When I go and do these evaluations in prison and jails, I see people who have committed horrific crimes against innocent women and children and people.

[00:37:34] And unless they're allowing themselves to really be confronted with the crimes that they committed and where they were wrong and accept responsibility and accountability for the crimes that they have committed, they are going to stay stagnant. They are not going to transform and grow. And yet I've also seen people who are not going anywhere and they're spending their life in prison and they've done tremendous growth.

[00:38:02] And they have extreme remorse and regret for the crimes that they have committed, and they've allowed themselves to be confronted with that ugliness within them that still resides within them. And yet they've taken steps to transform themselves, knowing that it's not going to change their conviction and their sentencing.

[00:38:25] And yet they are role models for other prison inmates. It is amazing to witness. And that is the ability of exercising free will and agency that we have today. 

[00:38:40] Bob Gatty: That's really remarkable. Do you have any idea of why it is that these people are willing to do that, given the fact that they have no hope of ever seeing the light of day outside the prison walls?

[00:38:55] Dr. Emily Bashah: I think it's meaning. I think it's all based on constructing individual meaning and that the they're not resentful. They've found an opportunity to forgive, not necessarily say that they condone the criminal acts of violence that they've committed. Had they had the opportunity, they wouldn't do it again.

[00:39:17] But they're seeing that there's a larger purpose and meaning in their life. And they want to commit to being that person and growing and transforming. 

[00:39:28] Mark M. Bello: The last, the last few questions and answers beautifully lead me to my next question. You're a young mother and father, you're raising children in today's troubled world.

[00:39:44] How do we educate our children to prevent them from becoming tomorrow's terrorists? Yeah, I think... Tomorrow's Islamophobias phobias or anti Semites. How do we prevent the kids... Educate the kids to be better than we are.

[00:40:03] Dr. Emily Bashah: Oh, there's so much I want to say on that. There is. Okay. Let me pick the top two. And I think yeah, this is something I struggle with on a day to day. This is important. And I think the story in the narrative and what I choose to teach our daughter, who's about to turn three years old is important.

[00:40:26] Know your history. Know what your ancestors have sacrificed in order for you to be here. Be stronger as a result of it. Be courageous. Be brave. It's okay to experience fear, but don't let fear cripple you. Or turn you to be helpless or take the cowardly position and just blaming the other side, take responsibility, be accountable for your own decisions.

[00:40:56] And don't allow fear and anxiety to rob you of seeing what is the right and the just thing to do, because that will oftentimes be harder than just following the narrative of the group and the larger group or the context that you're in, don't allow yourself to be deceived. And I think we practice and teach that as early as 2 years old.

[00:41:24] It's this notion of anti fragility. Jonathan Haidt does a really great example in his book, The Coddling of the American Mind and in showing and demonstrating and teaching this, that we have to be stronger as individuals and develop those struggle muscles within ourselves in order to have the difficult conversations, in order to confront the bully who's bullying you, in order to stand up for yourself.

[00:41:56] And I'm not saying that we should permit our Children to be physically harmed, but equip them to be emotionally resilient. And we're not when I'm talking about resilience, that is through the doing. It is through the actions. People come to me all the time in my clinic and they say, Oh, I'm suffering from a low self esteem.

[00:42:19] How do I get better self esteem? And I said we need to devise behavioral experiments. What are you most afraid of? And they'll talk about it and I'll say we need to start putting you in those situations where you're going to be doing the difficult things because you need to prove to yourself that you're capable of it.

[00:42:38] And trying to just engage in this internal banter isn't going to be enough. You have to engage, you have to start doing things that challenges you in order to prove to yourself that you can be, that you are stronger. I love a quote. I have it in my office today. And I said, courage sometimes isn't that large lion's roar.

[00:43:02] Sometimes it's that little whisper inside of us that says, I'll try again tomorrow. So knowing defeat is part of courage, 

[00:43:14] Bob Gatty: We keep having all these mass shootings that are largely caused, or at least in part caused by hate, by people feeling as though the world is out to get them. Somehow they've been wronged.

[00:43:30] Why is treating ideological extremism as important, as an addiction important for stopping this sort of violence? 

[00:43:40] Dr. Emily Bashah: Yeah, I work with all kinds of addictions and The way that it works on the brain is we have these dopamine receptors and when you get this rush of adrenaline and dopamine, it feels good.

[00:43:55] You're having this high and it's addictive. You want to chase it. And it's the same mechanisms of action neurologically that are happening in the brain when you're having an argument with somebody and you're getting that feeling like, oh, I've got the last say, oh, I was able to prove myself is right.

[00:44:14] Oh, I was able to dominate them and, they cowered to my position. And it's actually harder to do the work to be able to say, you're right on this point, but let me challenge you on this point. That is actually harder work. And so when you're in that mode and having that rush and that adrenaline and dopamine rush It's addictive.

[00:44:38] It has addictive properties. We want to feel that again, cause it makes us feel stronger and superior. And righteous self righteous. And oftentimes that is driven by a fragile ego because we don't have the ego strength inside of us to be able to tolerate that challenge in which we're having to maybe say, I was wrong when I said this.

[00:45:03] I was wrong when I did that. Let me humble myself to this experience. Let me open myself to really grow here, and hear you out. Even if I disagree with you, that is harder work. and it requires that ego strength to be able to do that. So when we're leaning towards those simple solutions and wanting just to have someone to blame, to prove that we're right, all of that is part of this illusory self protective bubble and it becomes habit forming when anyone challenges it.

[00:45:42] And again, it's this addiction because we're doing things that hurt us. And we continue to do it despite the harm that it creates and the fractures of our relationships and damaging the relationships with people we love and also self destructive in its own end. And that's the definition of an addiction.

[00:46:02] Mark M. Bello: But the opposite is true also, is it not, Emily? I'm a Jewish husband, the Jewish, I'm always wrong. Always. 

[00:46:10] You know this. 

[00:46:11] Let 

[00:46:15] Dr. Emily Bashah: me speak to this. I might have a bit of a nuanced perspective on this. So I'm all for women's rights. 

[00:46:20] Mark M. Bello: Before you, before you answer, I got a quick joke. Okay.

[00:46:25] Kid comes home to his mother all excited. And he says mom, I got a part in the school play. And she says, what part did you get? And he says, I'm Jewish husband. She says, you go back and tell that teacher you want a speaking part.

[00:46:39] Dr. Emily Bashah: Showing you who's in charge at all times. Oh, I think. Negotiation of power in a marriage is, oh, it can be really challenging, but I think there, there has to be a give and take. I honestly don't want totalitarian power. I probably wouldn't respect my husband if I did. And at the same time.

[00:47:06] I Value Paul's perspective. I value Paul's relationships and and his, where he comes from. Yes, he's very wise and yes, we have disagreements and we talk through how we want to raise our daughter, what principles are important to us. And we often talk about if I died, this is what is important for me for her to continue to learn and gain from this is the legacy that I want to leave her and if we both were to die, this is what we want people who are going to be her caregivers to know are important to us and so we remind each other of that.

[00:47:50] I don't want to do this work alone. And I think That, yeah, while I'm absolutely for women's rights I don't want to dominate men. I see them as an equal ally and I see Paul in our marriage and relationship bringing something so valuable for our daughter that I can't entirely bring. It is a powerful compliment.

[00:48:17] I cannot be him and me. It is not possible for her to gain that world of experience. And while, single moms do it all the time, they will find other people in their lives to be role models for them, whether it's an uncle or a grandfather or someone else to bring in that male perspective.

[00:48:38] So I don't want to make men obsolete. I don't want to treat them as inferior. And in fact, I think there's a beautiful harmony that occurs and I don't see women as being superior, nor do I want to support that belief because that goes against everything that I've just been saying. Okay, 

[00:48:59] Bob Gatty: all right.

[00:49:01] Can you remind our audience about your book? Addictive ideologies. Give us the cliff notes version of the highlights and tell us where people can find it. I think 

[00:49:12] Mark M. Bello: she just did. By all means 

[00:49:15] Dr. Emily Bashah: tell us. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'll add some new things. So Paul and I wrote this book. Some things that, people wouldn't necessarily know if they were reading the book is that it marked the 50th anniversary.

[00:49:27] It was the memorial of my grandfather's disappearance during the time of the Ba'ath party in Iraq. Yeah. And he was influential, he was real respected in his community. And one day he was just being pushed into a government unmarked vehicle and was taken to an underground jail cell that they called the palace of no return, where he was most likely tortured and killed. All of his wealth was seized. His assets were seized by his captors. And even today we have no knowledge or confirmation of his death or what had happened. So my family had to escape, not knowing whether he remained alive or dead. And so this was important because we, Paul and I chose to really illustrate our theory with a case illustration of my family's experience of being an ethnic minority, a religious minority in Iraq. And we also study genocides and extremism worldwide. We talk about what is also happening nationally with the polarization and that it's all linked to ideology and we are all at risk of being pulled in and seduced by rhetoric, either by leaders or media, what we're allowing ourselves to believe or what we're projecting our own fears or histories of victimization that make us quite vulnerable. And in the second part of our book, we talk about these, this hierarchy of agency and seven ideals for really how to protect and preserve yourself. And it's these notions of we, not me, not necessarily being self serving and everything that you do, but looking at how can you contribute? What are your unique talents and skills that you can contribute towards these pro social advances in community, society nationally, and even internationally.

[00:51:35] And it's about this notion of strength over safety, what I was talking about before with anti fragility and building resilience recognizing that you have your own power and agency to exercise and that comes with accountability and responsibility. that you're also driven by meaning and purpose, not necessarily happiness.

[00:52:00] One thing that I have to say that I'm observing in people that I'm coming into contact with clinically, is that they're just pulling back. They're fatigued. They're tired. Hearing about, wars in Ukraine and the coming up elections in the U. S. and All the things about Trump and MAGA members or woke culture and they're just fatigued and really they're just trying to limit their world to be something so narrow and possible that they could like, what is it that I have to be worried about today or what do I have to focus on today rather than seeing these larger systemic issues? Because it's too much and I think people are just oversaturated too with how much is going on. So they're starting to close themselves off and sometimes it's dangerous because you can start self medicating or using substances like alcohol and drugs and other things to help numb yourself, just to not feel that anxiety and sense of powerlessness or loss of control. Unpredictability of the future, paranoia, all those things are so palpable and so real. So I'm seeing people just limiting their existence to something so superficial.

[00:53:26] And I worry about that because there's such a deeper context and phenomenon that is happening in our day to day lives that I think we, we all have this opportunity to really enrich ourselves and grow from it and become stronger as a result of it. And so people are just becoming so disengaged and maybe trapped in the grief or learning to suppress the grief.

[00:53:50] It's just short term solutions. It's not really anything long term. They're not actually working through and processing what is going on for them. And I think anyone that's even looked at content of things that have been going on in the Middle East, like videos or footage or photographs that we can be struck by this sense of collective grief together and the sense of helplessness and powerlessness.

[00:54:16] So how do we correct it? And I think in our book, we really give this prescription of saying. You have to be exercising free will and be able to really look at your own dirty laundry, look at your own internal sets of structure. And what are you choosing to condone and how is that just promoting violence or hate or resentment or revenge and further perpetuating violence or allowing yourself to be radicalized as well. 

[00:54:50] Bob Gatty: Okay. So the name of the book is addictive ideologies. It's by Dr. Emily Bashaw and Paul Johnson. And people can find it where? 

[00:55:03] Dr. Emily Bashah: They can find it. If you do a Google search, certainly you can buy it on Amazon, which would probably be the easiest.

[00:55:09] You can get it in hard copy or Paul and I also narrate it in a audio book form. And then we have separate podcast on the Optimistic American where we branch out and take out different pieces from the book and teachings that we extract out from it. But yeah, you can find it online very easily.

[00:55:30] Okay. 

[00:55:30] Bob Gatty: That's great. All right. We thank you so much for being with us, Emily. It's been a pleasure talking to you again. 

[00:55:38] Dr. Emily Bashah: Ditto. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.