Secrets of Famed Crime Novelist Jeffrey Archer

Show Transcript

A Conversation with Famed Crime Novelist Jeffrey Archer

[00:00:00] Bob Gatty: Jeffrey Archer has topped the bestseller list around the world, with sales of over 275 million copies in 115 countries and 49 languages. He's the only author ever to have been number one bestseller in fiction 19 times, short stories 4 times, and non fiction. I'm thrilled that Jeffrey is able to join us from the UK today.

[00:00:29] Stay with us. 

[00:00:31] Jeffrey Archer's latest novel, Traitor's Gate. Is the sixth of his William Warwick series and was published in September. He's one of the most prolific novelists ever with more than 750, 000 readers. Jeffrey is an art collector and an amateur auctioneer conducting around 10 charity auctions a year, and he's raised over 51 million pounds in the last 30 years for good causes.

[00:01:00] He's been married to Dame Mary Archer, DBE, chair of the Science Museum Group, for 55 years, and they have two sons, two granddaughters, and three grandsons. Jeffrey, thanks so much for joining us today. Appreciate it. 

[00:01:17] Jeffrey Archer: Absolutely. Delighted. Thank you very much for having me on the show. 

[00:01:20] Bob Gatty: I was thrilled to receive the copy of Traitor's Gate and found it to be a typically fascinating Jeffrey Archer book and thoroughly enjoyed it.

[00:01:32] So tell us about that book and how you came to 

[00:01:35] Jeffrey Archer: write it. 

[00:01:36] Mary and I were on a cruise liner going around. And I was invited to dinner by the captain and I sat next to a man who said, I can tell you the story for your next book. That usually makes me ask him, have you killed your wife?

[00:01:54] I haven't had a yes yet. So I said, do get in touch with me when you have. He then went on to say, one worse, he then went on to say, I can tell you how to steal the crown jewels, which I thought everybody knows that only one man has ever managed to steal the crown jewels. That was Colonel Blood in 1671.

[00:02:15] Yeah, and he didn't get outside the tower, so I thought I'm stuck next to this guy. The soup course has just been served. When he said and it might interest you to know that I'm a member of the royal household, I then listened very carefully, indeed. And what he told me in the next three minutes was amazing.

[00:02:37] And by the time I got back to Southampton, I'd done a 30 page outline, but realized I would have to do the most amazing amount of research if Traitor's Gate was going to work. 

[00:02:50] Bob Gatty: You can tell from reading the book that you did that. The insight into the monarchy and what, and the traditions and what goes on in, in your country is just amazing in that book.

[00:03:01] As always in your books they're so well researched. The story is rich in intrigue and it presents a wonderful inside look at Great Britain's traditions. In the case of the book, The Queen's Crown. Now, which in the theft of the century gets stolen in this book, like you just said, and you just described where the plot originated.

[00:03:26] Did you ever have any thought in the past, that would make the core of a plot for one of your books. 

[00:03:37] Jeffrey Archer: It's such an unlikely story that I immediately dismissed it. Okay. When I looked into it more seriously and did the journey from Buckingham Palace to the Tower, and then from the Tower to the House of Lords, and then from the House of Lords to Buckingham Palace, and there are six different routes you can take.

[00:04:01] One of them on water, one of them by tube, and four by road. I had to decide which one I would actually use in the book. And of course, I needed the longest one. I needed extra time. As you will know, having read the book, timing is everything. And I needed six minutes and twenty seconds in order to make the plot feasible.

[00:04:28] Yeah it 

[00:04:29] Bob Gatty: worked. Now your website, you've got summaries and links to all of your books, including your original manuscripts, which are all handwritten. Are you telling me that's how you write your books, by hand? You don't type or use a computer?

[00:04:48] Jeffrey Archer: I'm 83. I don't know what a computer is. I can turn on a light, and my wife regularly says I forget to turn them off.

[00:04:56] But I like handwriting. I get up at six in the morning. I write from six until eight. I take a two hour break. I work from 10 until 12. I take a two hour break. I work from two until four. I take a two hour break. I work from six until eight. I'm in bed by 9 30, 10 up again at five the next day. And that's the way I like to do it.

[00:05:19] I can't type, I can't use a computer. And I enjoy writing and it feels. You've really done it yourself, is how it feels, if you write every word. 

[00:05:32] Bob Gatty: Yeah, I can see that. I looked at, I looked over the manuscripts, and, you can tell they're original, you've got cross outs and everything and it just struck me, man, I don't know how this guy does it, All these books, 300 plus pages in each.

[00:05:50] And he does this all by hand. Now who interprets your handwriting? And 

[00:05:57] Jeffrey Archer: it's very fortunate because I have a secretary who has been doing it for many years. And I think she can now read almost anything. It's very rare for her to say, what word is that? But you're quite right, it requires someone to then put it down on paper and give it back to me.

[00:06:17] And I then work on it triple spaced with a pencil. And the book you have in front of you, I can see it on your right. That is the 14th draft of Traitor's Gate, so you didn't get to see it until the 14th draft. 

[00:06:34] Bob Gatty: 14th draft, oh my god, so how long did it take you altogether from start to finish? 

[00:06:42] Jeffrey Archer: I think about a thousand hours, it usually works out as a year, but in real terms it's a thousand hours of writing that goes into each book.

[00:06:53] I wish there was a shortcut. Of course I do at 83. I wish there was a shortcut, but there is no shortcut. If you want to, if you expect people who have been loyal to you over many years. To continue to remain loyal, you mustn't shortchange them, you have to work every bit as hard on each book. 

[00:07:15] Bob Gatty: Why is it that a lot of authors I know to do series?

[00:07:20] Now you do the, you're into the William Warwick series right now. Do you do that just because you like to have the same character and follow through over a period of time with different plots, or is it to hook the reader and keep the reader interested for the next William Warwick book, or is it a combination of both?

[00:07:49] Jeffrey Archer: I think it probably is a combination, because when you pick up the pen on the first day and begin once upon a time, you're never quite sure, or at least I'm never quite sure, where it's going. And indeed, after two or three pages, it might well go in a totally different direction, and what you've got to do is follow that direction.

[00:08:12] You must not lead the book, it must lead you, because then the reader will follow it. As well, it's a very difficult question to answer, but every author has a different system, a different way. I confess that I rely a lot on the next idea coming. So I'm not a ballet dancer. I don't sing the opera. I don't play the violin.

[00:08:41] I tell stories, and I've been lucky enough for them to keep coming. 

[00:08:46] Bob Gatty: You, I don't know, man. You told me you're 83 years old. You must have a fertile imagination that you've honed over all these years, 

[00:08:56] Jeffrey Archer: right? I'm convinced that's a God given gift. I think imagination... Being a storyteller is a God given gift.

[00:09:06] I don't think you could go down to the supermarket and say, I'll have a packet of storytelling, please.

[00:09:13] Bob Gatty: I think you're right about that. Now, your works include. 28 fiction books, seven short story collections that comprise 95 stories, three prison diaries, three plays, and three children's books. And they're all managed by the Jeffrey Archer Company, which deals with all TV and film interests related to your books.

[00:09:40] Now, tell us about the Jeffrey Archer Company, and how did that get started and why? 

[00:09:48] Jeffrey Archer: I think as you grow older, you have to prepare for assuming you are not immortal. Yeah. And you're gonna have something on your grandchildren and children. I have two sons and five wonderful grandchildren.

[00:10:03] And so my very wise son, who's a banker, turned me into a company which will take care of them after I have gone. Ah. 

[00:10:14] Bob Gatty: Okay. Very smart. Now Prison Diaries, where did they come from? What do they cover?

[00:10:23] Jeffrey Archer: They, Were, of course, from experience and are the only non fiction books I've written. And I assumed, as I wrote them 23 years ago, they would go out of print or just...

[00:10:39] No one would be interested. The shock is they are still selling 23 years later. Oh, I see a dog in the back. Yeah, that's 

[00:10:48] Bob Gatty: my, oh, yeah. Hello, dog. Everybody, if you have a look at this that's Boomer. Oh. Boomer's a yellow lab that we got from the local Humane Society. He's about a year old. And he's my pal. He just hangs out with me.

[00:11:09] Oh, that's nice. Yeah, I hope you guys don't mind, but that's, 

[00:11:14] Jeffrey Archer: I'm a bit worried because he's biting my book. Oh no, he's licking my book.

[00:11:20] Bob Gatty: He must like, 

[00:11:21] Jeffrey Archer: he's been waiting for it for weeks.

[00:11:24] Bob Gatty: I will pick it up. So he does like to chew. 

[00:11:28] Jeffrey Archer: Yeah, I can believe it. 

[00:11:31] Bob Gatty: Most dogs do, but he likes to chew. He has lots of bones to chew on. Anyway, let's get back to you. Now, you said your prison diaries are from experience. I'm so sorry. You said your prison diaries are from experience. 

[00:11:47] Jeffrey Archer: Yes, I spent two years in prison.

[00:11:50] And it was absolutely fascinating, and I'm bound to say many of the stories, not least I'm thinking Prisoner of Birth, several short stories, and three prison diaries came out of it. So it was an amazing experience. 

[00:12:05] Bob Gatty: It sounds like it was a profitable one, 

[00:12:07] Jeffrey Archer: too. Can't complain. 

[00:12:09] Bob Gatty: So you want to tell us why why you were in the hoosgow for two years?

[00:12:14] I'm sorry. You want to tell us why you were in jail for two years? I 

[00:12:18] Jeffrey Archer: No, 

[00:12:18] I 

[00:12:18] Jeffrey Archer: think we'll move on. 

[00:12:19] Bob Gatty: Okay. All so how about your short stories? What are some of the themes of your short stories? 

[00:12:28] Jeffrey Archer: Ah, I think short stories, the fascinating thing about short stories, and you're quite right, I've written 92 in six different volumes it's the real stories. When you meet someone who tells you a real story, you realize it isn't a novel, and it's never going to be a novel, it's not big enough to be a novel.

[00:12:46] Okay. But it's a little vignette, it's a little piece of real life. And I have in my youth, I was in love with Maupassant.

[00:12:54] O'Henry, Jake, R. K., Narayan Somerset Maugham. So I've always loved short stories. Nowadays, they don't seem to be popular, but it hasn't stopped me writing them, particularly if it's a little piece of magic. That you know just won't make a full novel. 

[00:13:11] Bob Gatty: That's really interesting. I have a friend who's a novelist and he also enjoys writing short stories.

[00:13:18] And I thought perhaps maybe that's where I should focus some attention. At any rate now you're an art collector and Traitor's Gate trades on that experience. Tell us about your work as an art collector, and is that something that finds its way into your other novels? 

[00:13:37] Jeffrey Archer: It's a love affair, really, and a love affair from a very young age.

[00:13:42] When I was just before going up to university, I had a girlfriend who was going to university to read art, and the only way I could get her to even give me a second look Was to attend art galleries with her and I fell out of love with her and in love with the art and I've been collecting ever since I can't stop. My dear wife, Mary would like me to stop because there's no room left on the walls.

[00:14:10] Every wall is full and I'm just a lover of art, particularly the impressionist period. I've, that's been where my main collection has been, and so I pretty well buy another piece of work every time a new book comes out. 

[00:14:28] Bob Gatty: Oh, I see. So your new books helped to finance your art collecting habit.

[00:14:35] Jeffrey Archer: It's very interesting you say that. I've never met a collector who could afford one. Always buys just a little better than you really can afford. So I have a minor collection of impressionist paintings.

[00:14:51] Bob Gatty: A minor one. I bet it's really minor. All right, let's see here.

[00:14:56] I have a bunch of questions for you, but I've lost track. I understand you're working on two more William Warwick novels. Tell us about those. Which novels? Sorry. You're William Warwick. You've got a couple more in the works. It all 

[00:15:09] Jeffrey Archer: began when I was I'd done the Clifton Chronicles, and by then I was 77.

[00:15:16] And I suddenly got this idea for the William Warwicks. They're all individual novels. But I wanted to take a young man from his days as a constable on the beat in London with the Metropolitan Police right the way through in eight books to becoming commissioner. Every book being an individual story.

[00:15:36] So he starts on the beat as a constable. He then becomes a detective sergeant. He then becomes an inspector, chief inspector, superintendent, and the book I'm writing at the moment, he's a chief superintendent. If I live long enough, you will see him as a commander, and then he will be commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.

[00:15:59] Now, I've no doubt William Warwick is well capable of being commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, but I will have to live to the age of 86 if he's going to make it. 

[00:16:12] Bob Gatty: You only have four years to go. That's not bad. You look pretty good. You can make 

[00:16:16] Jeffrey Archer: it right.

[00:16:18] I hope you're right. I hope you're right.

[00:16:21] Bob Gatty: I hope so, too, because I want to see what happens. I'm sure a whole bunch of other people around the world would, too. All are your books being adapted to movies and TV? 

[00:16:34] Jeffrey Archer: It was announced last week that Sony, you will have, no reason you will have heard, but it's only just been announced.

[00:16:41] That Sony have purchased Cain and Abel. Of course, Cain and Abel was made into a mini series with Peter Strauss many years ago. And it's now going to be made a second time by Sony. It will start with the daughter of Abel, the daughter in law of Cain, Florentina. And she will be the main part of the story, and we will go back to the early years of Cain and Abel, and we will go forward to when she becomes president of the United States.

[00:17:16] So they've purchased all three books, and they've already written the first hour, which they're about to send to me. So I'm much looking forward and hopeful that there will be another version of Cain and Abel on the screens in the not too distant future. 

[00:17:33] Bob Gatty: Wow, that's just, that's amazing. So the answer is yes, we can look forward to seeing.

[00:17:42] Hope yeah, okay. Who's your favorite character in all these books you've written? Favorite 

[00:17:48] Jeffrey Archer: character? Probably. Cain and Abel, of course, has now been read by a hundred million people. And it's on its 132nd reprint, so I'm bound to say the public have decided that those are the two characters they like most.

[00:18:04] I'm sentimental about Mallory. From the book Paths of Glory, and whether he did or didn't reach the summit of Everest, his body having been found 700 foot from the top, which is absolutely true. But I wrote the story of whether he did make it to the top, or whether he didn't make it to the top, and whether he was actually the first person to conquer Everest.

[00:18:30] That, from a research point of view, gave me great pleasure. And funnily enough, the critics... Were very generous on that, on, on Paths of Glory. 

[00:18:40] Bob Gatty: All right. When you write your books, do you do an outline? Never. 

[00:18:48] Jeffrey Archer: I begin once upon a time and pray. When I say never, I know in my mind, I think I know in my mind, Cain and Abel is the story of two men.

[00:18:58] Both born on the same day, one with everything, one with nothing, they will only meet once in their life, and that meeting will change their whole lives. I know that much, but then I have to write the story. And so the latest one that you've just read Traitor's Gate. I know the wicked evil Miles Faulkner is going to try and steal the 1937 Imperial State Crown.

[00:19:27] But that was all I knew. So he lived when I sat down. Yeah. And by the end by the end of the first attempt I the research. I realized I had to do an awful lot of research. 

[00:19:42] Bob Gatty: So you did a draft, and you weren't happy, and you decided you needed to do more 

[00:19:49] Jeffrey Archer: research. Oh no, you're never happy at the end of the first draft.

[00:19:53] Yeah. Some people hand in the first draft and think it's a book. It isn't. The first draft is the first draft. You've then got to do more research, and you've got to start again. So what you, as I said, what you have got. In front of you now, it's the 14th 

[00:20:11] Bob Gatty: draft. When you said it takes you got a, you have a thousand hours in Traitor's Gate.

[00:20:17] Does that include the research, or is that just the 

[00:20:20] Jeffrey Archer: writing? No, that's just the writing. I would say another 500 hours on the research, and that will cover a complete year. I usually start on January the 1st. And I usually hand it in sometime in December. Okay. 

[00:20:35] Bob Gatty: When you first began, I don't, what year was it that you wrote your first novel?

[00:20:40] I, 

[00:20:41] Jeffrey Archer: after leaving the House of Commons, I wrote my first book, Not a Penny More, Not a Penny Less, which was a major triumph. It sold 3, 000 copies. Just about sold 3, 000 copies. Took them a year to sell 3, 000 copies. So it wasn't exactly an auspicious start, but that was my first book. And that was, 64, sorry.

[00:21:03] That was 1964, 1965.

[00:21:05] So I've been writing for, no, I, yes, I've been writing for 50 years now. Okay, 

[00:21:12] Bob Gatty: so 1965 your first book came out. did you have... It was 

[00:21:20] Jeffrey Archer: turned down. It was turned down by 15 publishers. Oh, wow. The 16th publisher scraped together 3, 000 pounds and just about published it. What do you mean, just about? I've sold 27, 500, 000 copies.

[00:21:37] Ha, geez. 

[00:21:39] Bob Gatty: Oh, man. You're blowing me away, man. I keep forgetting my questions. I had another question I wanted to ask you while you were talking. Do you... Do you do you find it difficult as you go through the process of researching and writing? Do you find it difficult to get it to where you want it?

[00:22:03] 15, what'd you say, 14 drafts, 15 drafts? 

[00:22:07] Jeffrey Archer: Yes, it's very hard work. It gets easier in theory, because once you've got the whole story down, it's put back in front of me in typewritten form, triple spaced, and I work with a pencil. And then again, and again. So in theory, it gets easier and easier, but then a disaster can occur when you're on about the sixth or seventh draft.

[00:22:29] You suddenly have a total switch. Idea, which will send the book in a totally different direction, you go to bed saying, Oh, I can't be bothered to do that. And then you wake up knowing you've got to do it because of what, how much better it will make the book. 

[00:22:46] Bob Gatty: Oh, so you might be on draft number 10. And all of a sudden you decide to take the plot in an entirely different 

[00:22:55] Jeffrey Archer: direction?

[00:22:56] Yes, that can happen. It doesn't usually happen as late as number 10, but I got one, I'm on draft number 13 of the present book, and I got an idea this morning which will switch the last hundred pages in a different direction. This guy 

[00:23:13] Bob Gatty: is just a lunatic. He's crazy. That's incredible. All right.

[00:23:18] So when you start, have you got any idea how this book is going to end? 

[00:23:26] Jeffrey Archer: No. You may have a vague idea and think, But no, you have absolutely no idea. You pray and pray. I wrote a book many years ago called First Among Equals, the story of four young men entering the British House of Commons.

[00:23:38] I knew one of them was going to become Prime Minister. I didn't know until three pages from the end which one it was going to be.

[00:23:46] Bob Gatty: Wow. All right, with respect to Traitor's Gate did you know... Obviously the story is about the theft of the of the crown. Did you know how that was going to work out when you began? No, 

[00:24:06] Jeffrey Archer: I knew that the timing was very important. I knew that I needed six minutes and 20 seconds. Why? To get out the idea.

[00:24:15] And I had to discover how to steal that six minutes and 20 seconds, because without it, I couldn't actually get my hands on the real crown. Once I'd mastered how to get the six minutes and 20 seconds, it all fell into shape. 

[00:24:32] Bob Gatty: All right, now the six minutes and 20 seconds. Explain to our listeners what, why...

[00:24:38] Why that was so crucial, 

[00:24:41] Jeffrey Archer: because there is a period of time between when the police pick the crown up and when it is handed over to the authorities, which is pretty much the same every year when it's taken to Buckingham Palace for the Queen to prepare for the Queen's speech. But if you could slow the process down by 6 minutes and 20 seconds, then you have an opportunity, a window of opportunity to actually steal the crown.

[00:25:15] Bob Gatty: You said that your day is two hours you get up and you work for two hours and then you take a couple hours off and then you come back and work for two more hours and you keep doing that until into the evening. Is that a rigid schedule? Do you vary from it? Do you? Oh, I, I think I'll, I think I'll go. 

[00:25:42] Jeffrey Archer: Do something else today. 

[00:25:43] No, certainly not. On the first draft, when I go away to my home in Mallorca to write the first draft in January, it is absolutely rigid. The moment you start to say, I think I'll take an hour off and watch a bit of television.

[00:25:58] I think I'll just have a rest. No, you'll never finish the book. You have to be absolutely disciplined. And get on with it. There's a thousand excuses not to write a book. Okay. There's only one excuse to write one. 

[00:26:14] Bob Gatty: All right. What would you, what advice would you give to young novelists who want to become the next you?

[00:26:22] Jeffrey Archer: Do not assume after you finish the first draft, you've finished. Too many young people rather, not their fault, it's very human and very understandable, then show it to their father or their mother or their girlfriend or their boyfriend and ask their opinion. Their opinion is of no value at all. They will lie.

[00:26:43] They will tell you it's wonderful. They will tell you are the new Charles Dickens. Show it to someone Who doesn't know you and will give an honest opinion. Remember that only one book in a thousand is published. One book in a thousand that is published gets on to the best sellers list. One book in a thousand that gets on to the best sellers list makes it to number one on the New York Times.

[00:27:12] And then you'll realize what you're up against. Don't think anybody can write a novel, because anybody can't play the violin, sing countertenor at the opera house, or be a ballet dancer. 

[00:27:28] Bob Gatty: I think that my experience certainly bears that out. Alright how about your favorite authors?

[00:27:36] Do you read other people's... Dead 

[00:27:38] Jeffrey Archer: or Alive. I don't care. Stefan Zweig, I think, is probably the greatest all rounder I've read. I think Beware of Pity is a masterpiece. I think he has that rare ability of being able to write beautifully, but tell a good story at the same time. His tragic death, in fact, he committed suicide when he believed Hitler would win the war, was a great loss to literature.

[00:28:05] But luckily, we have two novels. Several short stories and some of the best non fiction about Europe that's ever been written, so I'd say Stefan Zweig was my favorite author. 

[00:28:18] Bob Gatty: Interesting. Now you mentioned a little while ago that you guys started this company, the Jeffrey Archer Company, with a, with an eye towards the day that you're no longer with us.

[00:28:35] , I want to know what is the legacy that you want people to... think about after you're gone with respect to your work that you've done all these 

[00:28:45] Jeffrey Archer: years? 

[00:28:46] You pray, of course, that people will go on reading you after you've gone.

[00:28:50] That's a real legacy. There are four of us Stephen King John Grisham John Le Carre, and myself who've survived 40 years and are still being read. And as Cain and Abel is on its 132nd reprint, there's no reason to believe it will suddenly stop selling. It sold a quarter of a million last year, and I had a letter only two days ago saying they'd sold 5, 200 copies this year in Vietnam.

[00:29:20] So I think one can believe it will go on. So to answer your question in all honesty, legacy is the hope. that readers will go on reading you long after you've gone. Okay, 

[00:29:32] Bob Gatty: I think that's probably a guarantee in your case. Jeffrey, I really have enjoyed talking to you. I could go on and on for hours but I do appreciate you being with us and look forward to to your next books, man.

[00:29:49] Really do. 

[00:29:49] Jeffrey Archer: Very kind. Thank you very much indeed. A fascinating interview. Very worthwhile. Thank you very much indeed. 

[00:29:56] Bob Gatty: Thank you.