Life After Diagnosis: Sarah Cart's Guide for Caregivers

Show Transcript

Sarah Cart: Catastrophic Illness to Healing and Hope

[00:00:00] Unexpectedly, becoming a caregiver for a loved one can be a huge and draining experience. You want to do everything you can to help your ailing loved one, but you can quickly become utterly exhausted going on empty fumes, anxiety, and uncertainty. Today's Sarah Cart. Journalist, wife, and mother of four, shares her experience of becoming her husband's caregiver.

[00:00:27] She found herself quickly pivoting to this new and demanding role, and assumed her life as she knew it was behind her. Stay with us.

[00:00:39] In her new memoir, On My Way Back to You, one couple's journey through catastrophic illness to healing and hope, Sarah explains how she became one of the 39 million Americans taking care of an ailing loved one when her husband, Ben, needed an immediate heart transplant. Sarah shares their love story and Ben's heroic work to heal and how to cope while simultaneously processing, triaging, and coordinating as a caregiver. She shares how she was afraid of losing the love of her life while still trying to keep her own head above water, while all the while educating herself about organ transplants.

[00:01:23] She offers advice for those finding themselves in a similar situation, and with On My Way Back to You, provides a life saving primer on caregiving for those who find themselves suddenly in that role, and simply are unprepared. Sarah was raised and educated in New York and New England and wrote for multiple local publications, while she and Ben raised four sons.

[00:01:49] Upon becoming empty nesters, they moved to the Florida Keys. Then came COVID 19, and Sarah says, all hell broke loose. However, with Ben undergoing miraculous life saving measures, they've been afforded the unanticipated gift of a future. Sarah, thanks for sharing your story with us on the Lean to the Left podcast.

[00:02:13] Thank you for having me, Bob. I'm delighted to be here. 

[00:02:16] Hey, tell us what happened to Ben, Sarah. When did you realize that his health was deteriorating and what did you do? 

[00:02:24] It was really subtle at first. We were at a family wedding, and as everyone was applauding and clapping, at one point I realized that Ben, who always whistles on such occasions, was doing it differently than usual.

[00:02:37] It was typically a one handed thing. Fingers in the corners of his mouth, and this time he was using his other hand, and I didn't ask him immediately what was going on, but in the car on the way home, it was what was that about? Why is your whistle different? 

[00:02:50] And he mentioned that his fingers had been a little swollen off and on for a while.

[00:02:56] You get into those conversations with someone you know really well about how long is a while and he says two weeks and you think, okay, so it's probably two months and what else is going on. And there was one other slight thing. His fingers were also changing color. If he was moving from one air conditioned room to another that wasn't or vice versa.

[00:03:15] And I nagged him until he went to the doctor and that led to blood work and that led to a diagnosis of this odd autoimmune issue. And okay, that's weird, but we were told you just manage it symptom by symptom. And Ben, the scientist in him was really fascinated by okay, so I take this medication and that solves this problem.

[00:03:39] And then there'd be another diagnosis and there'd be another medication and that would solve that problem where there might be this side effect. And we were moving along fine until he got a diagnosis of congestive heart failure. And that really was a gut punch for him because that was what had been on his grandfather's death certificate.

[00:04:00] So all of a sudden we knew we were in the big leagues. 

[00:04:04] And Ben was how old at that time? 

[00:04:06] 57. And just irrepressibly energetic and his nicknames were the Ever Ready Bunny and Tigger. He was always had a camp counselor, team leader energetic personality. So it knocked him back. 

[00:04:23] It's amazing though that you spotted that symptom of just the difference of his whistle.

[00:04:30] Yeah. It was. Yeah. And I don't know that if we hadn't, if he hadn't whistled, I, how many more weeks, how many more months might it have been before we noticed something? And it was just really I mentioned it, it got mentioned to our doctors as we went in for our flu shots, and the doctor said, I'm not giving him a flu shot, we're doing blood work instead.

[00:04:47] Wow. It's amazing, though, how when you've been with someone that you love for all these years, you become so attuned to every little thing that they do. 

[00:04:59] For better or worse., 

[00:05:00] and when something's different, you know it. Yeah. 

[00:05:04] And you know something needs to be checked. Yeah. And that's just amazing, and that probably saved the man's life.

[00:05:10] At that moment, yeah. It gave us some lead time. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:05:16] How did the COVID 19 lockdown affect all of this? 

[00:05:20] Frankly, I think it saved his life. If it weren't for the pandemic he would have died. 

[00:05:24] Why are you saying that? 

[00:05:26] Yeah, we had learned, so after the congestive heart failure diagnosis, he got a life saving pacemaker.

[00:05:32] That was great. We were back on top of the world, and the pacemaker was keeping up for about six months and then we were losing ground significantly again and we were told that the only thing that was going to save his life would be a heart transplant. So we started running the hurdles to get him on that list and There was some question as to whether or not his autoimmune issue would preclude that because it was migrating through his body from organ to organ, so if we gave him a new heart, was the autoimmune issue just going to say, oh great, thank you, and feast on that?

[00:06:08] Yeah. 

[00:06:08] Two weeks after the world shut down, Ben's kidneys shut down, and he ended up in the ICU. And they did stabilize him and we finally, they finally put him on the list. I couldn't visit him because of COVID. And I hoped that he, they'd send him home and we, now that he's on the list, you'll send him home and we wait.

[00:06:27] And they said no, because he's got this, they put in a pump to help his heart. And then they had to put in a second pump to help his heart. And then he got so unstable, they took him off the list. on Good Friday, put him back on the list on Easter. This is all April 2020. And three days after Easter, he was unstable again, on the verge of being removed from the list when a transplant coordinator walked in and said, we have a heart and he went into surgery the next morning.

[00:06:59] Yeah, and the only people who were getting transplants at that point, the only people who were being wheeled into ORs and hospitals all around the country were the people who were either in an emergency situation, needing an appendectomy right now, or they've just been, gunshot wound or they were in the hospital dying because they weren't calling people and saying, hey, we've got your kidney, we've got your whatever, because they didn't know the COVID tests were still taking 4 days to get results.

[00:07:25] And so the hospitals were really shut down. They didn't have any volunteers coming in. No visitors coming in. The medical staff was all stressed beyond imagining. 

[00:07:36] What type of work does he do? 

[00:07:38] Ben's an entrepreneur. He and a partner started their own small oil and gas business in Ohio back in the mid 1980s, they would Recycle shallow wells that change the timing on them.

[00:07:53] And if the well was too old to be saved, they would pull the pipe. And there was a secondary market for the pipe. 

[00:08:00] Okay. 

[00:08:01] They call themselves Sanford and sons. That wasn't their real name. But when they were trying to explain what they did. And they did a lot of work with the Ohio EPA making sure that wells were responsibly shut in and, 

[00:08:12] okay was he working during this time that all this happened? 

[00:08:15] He had to file disability and retire. It was a forced retirement. with his partner's blessing and support. They had been very proactive about what would we do if one of us had a stroke or a car accident or who knows what.

[00:08:31] And we never expected that we'd have to exercise the disability claim the way we did. And Ben was so out of it that in fact it was Ben's business partner and I were the ones who did most of the paperwork. 

[00:08:43] What did all this do to you? All this, you had to go through, this had to be just extremely traumatic for you.

[00:08:51] How did you cope? What'd you do? 

[00:08:54] I am a writer by instinct, it's how I process stuff, so there was a lot of journaling a lot of, once you finally went in the hospital, part of my journaling I focused it on writing emails to immediate family and friends so that everybody would be in the loop and on the same page.

[00:09:13] I took up meditation, which people who know me are really surprised. That must have been, it must have been incredibly stressful if you found the time to sit down and meditate, because I'm typically Why, 

[00:09:23] why do you say that?

[00:09:25] Oh, I don't sit still very long for anything. I 

[00:09:28] have never been able to figure meditating out either.

[00:09:31] Yeah, it was, It was actually it was a free meditation series that Oprah Winfrey and Deepak Chopra sponsored during the beginning of the pandemic. And it was three weeks of 20 minutes a morning. One friend kept saying you should do this, you should do this. And finally, after she'd been nagging me for a couple of weeks, I started with day one.

[00:09:53] And if the message was there is always a reason to keep hope alive. 

[00:09:58] Okay. 

[00:09:58] And on day, I can't remember what the message was on day three, but day three was the day they called me and said, we've put him on the list for transplants. I was like, okay, there's something to this. I'm going to keep talking to the universe.

[00:10:09] The day after his transplant, the message was. It's all about rebirth and having a new heart and it's, wow, it was really freaky. So 

[00:10:18] that is freaky. That's really spooky. 

[00:10:21] Yeah. Yes. There's a lot of spooky stuff that went on with this. I really, while he was in the hospital and going on the list and off the list, and there were times when he didn't know who I was our communications were dependent upon the nurses Facilitating FaceTime and I would just ask the universe, everybody we know, wherever you are, all the people we've lost and who loved us to please come back to this little corner and focus your light and love on Ben and help him get through this.

[00:10:51] So I would ask his really practical grandfather and on the other side of his family, his really practical grandmother, please stand by his head and help him think clearly. And the other grandfather whom I never met, but my stories, the stories I heard were always about this very loving, kind person and the other grandmother whom I adored, I'd have them stand at his heart and help, help his body accept this new heart.

[00:11:12] That kind of thing. I asked the donor to be there too. My brother, everybody, high school friends, people we've lost and loved to please come back and love us through this crisis. 

[00:11:23] Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I don't understand. You asked the donor to be there? I asked 

[00:11:28] the donor, please, wherever you've ended up in the universe, I don't know who you are, but please, whatever energy you can focus on this person who's alive, thanks to your family's grace and generosity yeah, please come back and help us.

[00:11:43] Okay, I got it now. 

[00:11:45] Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. It's not where I usually go, but it's where I found myself in that. 

[00:11:52] When you said we asked the, I asked the donor, 

[00:11:56] that would be a real

[00:11:58] trick, the guy's dead. 

[00:12:01] It put me on the cover of the National Inquirer. 

[00:12:05] Oh, I wrote for them once. Years ago, one time I did an article for them..

[00:12:11] That would be fun. 

[00:12:13] Yeah. On another topic I'll tell you about sometime. Alright, let's see here. Brought me to this question with your talk about asking people to show up and help, whether they were with us or not. You've said that becoming a caregiver requires a deep well of faith, grit, and grace.

[00:12:36] You want to expand on that a little bit? What you mean? And how those qualities sustained you through all of this? 

[00:12:45] They helped me to, for lack of a better expression, do the work. If you're lucky, there are days when you're able to progress two steps forward and maybe you get two of those days in a row, but then there are days where you slip five steps back and another day you slip five steps back and it's just, I don't want to do this anymore.

[00:13:07] And on those days when you don't want to work, you have to do it anyway. You've got to. You just have to choose higher and to grow and to overcome. And you find especially once he was in the hospital and I couldn't go visit him, that there were days when I was making so many decisions, big and small.

[00:13:26] Needed his hearing aid charger. And so I had to ship that to the hospital. Where is it? How to find it. Oh, maybe I'll throw in a sharpie marker, too. But then you're also making decisions. You're signing consent for procedures that you've just heard about for the 1st time an hour ago.

[00:13:41] And it's been made clear to you that this is a life saving procedure that is necessary. Has to happen immediately and then you're thinking a little farther forward and wondering, can he come home to this house? Can we keep living where we are or do we need to be talking about, do I need to be thinking about assisted living and home health care and nurses and all that kind of thing.

[00:14:04] So it's just exhausting. And so the faith and the grit and the grace they also remind you to be gentle with yourself and to allow you to cry when you need to. So it's. I like, 

[00:14:17] I like what you just said, gentle, be gentle with yourself. 

[00:14:20] Yeah, you have to be. 

[00:14:22] Yeah. 

[00:14:23] You're not going to get it right.

[00:14:24] There's, there is no way to be a caregiver and do it perfectly. Did 

[00:14:27] you, did you go through a period of depression over all of this? 

[00:14:32] I was too busy in the moment to be depressed. 

[00:14:35] Huh. 

[00:14:36] After he came home and he came home with a whole nother series of issues. He actually 10 days after the transplant.

[00:14:44] We got a phone call. I got a phone call. Had anyone mentioned this fractured left hip? And no, in fact, nobody had. He'd been in a bed in the hospital for almost a month at that point, maybe a month, and they hadn't noticed it. But I could tell them that I suspected I knew when it happened, which was 4 or 5 days before he went in the hospital.

[00:15:07] He was Unbelievably exhausted, sleeping really horribly, and he fell asleep walking back from the commode in the middle of the night to our bed. Maybe 12 feet, went over like a tree. I did, I slept through it because I was exhausted. And a couple days later I noticed he was taking ibuprofen like it was jelly beans.

[00:15:24] So I, it was just a kind of unbelievable glitch. I'm sorry, I can't remember what your question was, I lost 

[00:15:32] it. Sounds to me like he was and he is a tough guy. 

[00:15:37] He is a tough guy. 

[00:15:39] You said that he, there he is, he's got a broken damn hip. And he's, and didn't 

[00:15:44] know it.

[00:15:44] And didn't know it. And he's sucking down, he's sucking down ibuprofen. Yeah. And you notice that. I know what that's like. I got a bad hip. I had a hip surgery and it still hurts. And so I don't know what pain he must've been in. 

[00:16:02] He was in excruciating pain. In the hospital, when he was first in the hospital and they weren't making him move, he wasn't.

[00:16:08] It 

[00:16:08] was after he came home because They did the heart transplant, he's in the hospital recovering from the heart transplant and then they put you through cardiac rehab so you can learn in a rehab situation from a wheelchair in his case, how to manage himself in the kitchen, they have, they had a little miniature apartment and I did get to go see that, how to get in and out of bed, how to get in the shower, how to get in and out of a car, which was, hugely helpful because that's how I got him home.

[00:16:38] And he, through all of that, was dealing with the broken hip and had been on opioids for two weeks by the time they sent him home. And the hospital was great about saying, he is now technically addicted. We are going to have you talk with pain management people. And there was this, he was asked, he had to ask himself, is my pain on a scale of one to 10 worse than a six?

[00:17:02] If it's worse than a six, I can take the oxy and if it's less than a six, I'm going to do it with ibuprofen. And we did that right up until he was able to get the hip replaced, which was two months after he came home. So 

[00:17:16] not only did he have a heart transplant, he had a hip transplant. 

[00:17:20] Yep. And then the night they did his hip transplant as there was a tropical storm coming into Florida.

[00:17:27] Yeah. And he was supposed to spend the night in the hospital and because everybody in the hospital knew him so well and had experienced his determination even when he was out of it, 

[00:17:39] they 

[00:17:39] said, you can take him home. So his hip replacement was outpatient surgery. I took him home. The surgeon called that night to make sure we'd gotten home safely, called the next morning to make sure we were doing okay.

[00:17:50] Called the morning after that, at which point I said, yeah, but he's in such bad pain. And the surgeon said what are you doing with the. with the medications. And I said, we're still at the six or higher. I said no, this is why we paced you all summer. This is when he should take the meds every however many hours it was.

[00:18:07] And he did. And it was great. And two weeks later, we're in the surgeon's office. And Ben says, that was great. Once you told me I could take the meds and the surgeon said, that's wonderful. I'm not renewing your prescription and he counted the pills he had enough to go for another six weeks, but he was off of them.

[00:18:23] Then 10 days after that weaned himself. 

[00:18:26] Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:18:28] But you had asked about whether or not I was depressed. Yeah. Finally, I finally after the hip replacement and. Once he was finally learning to walk again I went and talked to somebody and who said, quite honestly, you're going through PTSD and you are now the patient who needs to be cared for.

[00:18:48] You 

[00:18:48] talked to somebody who Lovely and generous 

[00:18:50] thing. 

[00:18:50] Who was the somebody you talked to? 

[00:18:52] It was a doctor down here in Florida who'd helped a son of ours a few years ago. And I just called him and said, hey, can I come chat with you for a while? I only went and talked with him once. 

[00:19:02] And 

[00:19:03] his advice was basically, when you get up in the morning, just ask yourself, what will give me joy today?

[00:19:09] And if it's possible, do that. Wow. 

[00:19:13] Okay. 

[00:19:13] So 

[00:19:16] that helped you out a lot, probably. 

[00:19:17] Yes. Yes. 

[00:19:19] Okay. Now, what advice would you have for other family caregivers who find themselves in a similar situation? 

[00:19:30] Don't put up any barriers, don't be afraid to be vulnerable be gracious and accepting of people's attempts to help.

[00:19:38] Not everybody knows what to do. Some people are going to say things that they sound stupid or rubbed you the wrong way, just appreciate that they're trying to do their best to be supportive. When people ask how things are going, don't try to exaggerate or sugarcoat. You don't want to have to walk back anything if circumstances change.

[00:19:59] And again be kind and forgiving of yourself. Give yourself breathing space where and when you can. So 

[00:20:07] sounds like good advice. How did your community support you during all of this? Did you have some help with people, friends, and 

[00:20:17] It was COVID, so I couldn't really have people come in. But I also, but my friends and neighbors here, I'd open my front door and there would be Dinner.

[00:20:25] There would be a box of tea. One woman gave me a watercolor of flowers because live ones won't last, I think was the note that she included with it. Oh, 

[00:20:36] oh, nice. And 

[00:20:37] then, and then on the long distance side of things, because our family was far away, most of our lifelong friends were far away. . My zoom, my first time on Zoom was actually the night Ben and Ben ended up in the hospital.

[00:20:49] A friend on the West coast. Was having a zoom birthday party. I never heard of such a thing. It's amazing to me to think that there was a time when I didn't know what zoom was. 

[00:21:00] Yeah, that is amazing, isn't it? 

[00:21:03] Within days, I was Zooming with our boys and other friends and family up north. My book club from Ohio, because they suddenly found themselves Zooming, got in touch with me.

[00:21:15] Ten years after I left Ohio, I was Zooming with them. And it was wonderful to interact with so many people and to realize that Everybody was going through something. We were all going through COVID, but we were also all going through other things as well.

[00:21:29] Yeah. Okay. What do you want your readers to take away from your personal experience?

[00:21:36] That there is always something for which to be grateful. And when you pray for miracles, recognize that sometimes the miracles you get will be different than the miracle you prayed for. Okay. But as for the gratitude, it might be something as simple as the roof over your head or having a clean T shirt or having a dirty T shirt from the laundry hamper that reminds you of the person you're missing.

[00:22:02] And this one, again, this is like meditation. People would say, really? Sarah was doing that? But it never hurts to give yourself a pep talk. I adopted it from a friend, good friend, our best man. 

[00:22:16] We 

[00:22:17] were with him one weekend and he put down blueberry pancakes at breakfast that he had made, and he just said, great job me.

[00:22:23] And we all looked at him and went what are you? I do that positive affirmation. Okay. Wow, that's a little odd but I found myself saying, let's go me or you can do this me, come on, get up and do it, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, do it. There were a lot of variations on that in the book, but it really helped.

[00:22:45] Right before I brought Ben home from rehab, the entry in my journal was let's go us.

[00:22:53] Good for you, good for you. I find myself patting myself on the back every once in a while. 

[00:22:58] It's really useful and helpful. I'm really glad Pete shared that with us. Even if we do get a brief for it. 

[00:23:05] I made a I'm not by any stretch of the imagination, the cook, there's my dog scratching himself.

[00:23:10] I see, boomer. Boomer. 

[00:23:14] Yeah, I decided the other day that I wanted to make I wanted to make a cannoli cake. I found a recipe. 

[00:23:22] Oh, excellent. 

[00:23:23] Jackie had a, it was laying around with her recipes, and I saw it, and I thought, I love cannoli, so let's try a cannoli cake. So I made it and it turned out great.

[00:23:36] And so I patted myself on the back. You might have to send me the 

[00:23:39] recipe. 

[00:23:40] Oh, sure. Absolutely. And I'm one of these people that I don't read directions very well. I tend to just do things and 

[00:23:51] that's a challenge in baking because baking is kind of chemistry. 

[00:23:54] It is. And the recipe had said to do, to mix this stuff up in, in a certain way.

[00:24:04] And I didn't see that until I had already mixed it up and I hadn't done it the way the recipe said. Was it edible? Oh, it came out. You'd have never known. 

[00:24:18] Oh, good. Excellent. Excellent. 

[00:24:20] And what it was the, You had to make we'll see, you had wet ingredients and dry ingredients. Oh, yeah.

[00:24:26] And they wanted them mixed up separately and then blended together. And I just put them all together. Yeah. But it worked. Yeah, 

[00:24:35] sometimes they want you to put a third of the wet in and a third of the dry and a third of the wet.

[00:24:39] That's right. That's right. It's 

[00:24:40] just a time wasting thing. Yeah, 

[00:24:42] it is.

[00:24:42] It's a bunch of crap. 

[00:24:43] So unimportant. 

[00:24:45] But let me tell you something, that cannoli cake was delicious. I might even, I might have a picture of it. And if I do, I'm going to, I'm going to put it right here in this episode. 

[00:24:56] Excellent. 

[00:24:58] So if you could go back and give yourself advice from before Ben got sick, what would you tell your former self?

[00:25:07] My first reaction to that question. brings up an answer that implies a crystal ball and the ability to predict the future. And that is, you are stronger than you are strong enough for this, stronger than you think. But, because none of us knows what the future holds, the real answer has to be live for this moment and treasure it.

[00:25:33] We tend to think of life, our society highlights life in bullet points, births, weddings. gender reveals, graduations, promotions. And when in fact, the nitty gritty is all the stuff that happens in between the bullet points. So my advice, and it's hard to even begin to comprehend what it means if you haven't been through a whole lot of stuff, but the advice would be rejoice and be glad in this day and whatever blessings it brings.

[00:26:03] That's great advice, especially from someone who didn't know if her loved husband would survive. You had a, that had to be extremely difficult for you. 

[00:26:17] It was, but we had the time to prepare. So many people don't get that time, especially during COVID. So many people lost loved ones and didn't have the time we had.

[00:26:30] And yes, I was his caregiver, but he made a point of caring for me too. He spent a lot of time making sure that I knew the practical stuff with lessons and plumbing. Those were fun and automobile mechanics. Those were fun as well. Wait a minute. 

[00:26:46] What the hell was he? Teaching you about automobiles. 

[00:26:48] Oh, just, just, like when the light goes on, you really ought to call and ask 

[00:26:52] what 

[00:26:53] the check engine thing is about.

[00:26:55] Oh, okay. Thank you. It's not, 

[00:26:56] it's not, there aren't going to be bells and whistles. They're not going to call me. No, you probably ought to call them. How to handle the household finances. 

[00:27:03] We were not 60 yet. He was pointing out to me when I would have to start paying attention to Medicare and those sorts of things, just really preparing me to be on my own while I was preparing him, helping prepare him for his exit.

[00:27:22] Yeah, it was tough but today he's wonderful. And we've got our miracle and it's. It's amazing. And he's annoying. And I thank myself every time. I thank him every time he annoys me. It's amazing. And I thank myself. Way to go, you. 

[00:27:39] All right. That's just great. So he's doing okay then, right?

[00:27:42] He is. Is he back 

[00:27:44] at work? 

[00:27:45] He is not back at work. I would say. I'd say where he used to do a sort of a plus work sitting at his desk. He's about a B plus now. 

[00:27:54] Okay. 

[00:27:54] He he's found a new passion, which is croquet. He's trying to convince our doctor that he plays something called cardio croquet because it's got no cardio exercise involved in it whatsoever, but it's what he likes to do.

[00:28:08] Okay. 

[00:28:09] Okay. 

[00:28:10] Basically, 

[00:28:11] he's always loved pool. So croquet is life size billiards. 

[00:28:15] Wow. 

[00:28:16] Yeah. 

[00:28:18] Okay. So that's croquet. That's what the little hoops out in the yard and everything. 

[00:28:22] The wickets out in the yard. Yeah. In Florida, they've got, they put a lot of time and energy into making sure that the croquet court looks just like a golf green.

[00:28:31] Very flat. Oh my. Really? Yeah. Very short grass. 

[00:28:35] Okay. I'm glad to hear all that. That's great news. And I really do appreciate you joining us on our podcast. Do you have any other words of wisdom for folks? 

[00:28:47] The only other thing I would say is if you've already indicated to your loved ones that you're willing to be an organ donor, thank you. 

[00:28:54] If you haven't, I hope you'll consider it.

[00:28:57] And again, share that wish with your loved ones. We lost a very good friend suddenly 27 years ago, and five families, five patients were positively impacted, and the ripple effect for their families was just tremendous. And we are forever grateful to the suffering family who, in the midst of what have to have been their darkest hours, so graciously and generously shared their tragedy.

[00:29:22] Turned the tragedy into our miracle. 

[00:29:25] That's incredible. Okay, Sarah. Listen, thank you so much for being with us. I appreciate it.

[00:29:31] Okay. Thank you, Bob. 

[00:29:32]