John Pabon-The Great Greenwashing

Show Transcript

Exposing the Climate Greenwashing Lies

[00:00:00] Bob Gatty: As you guys know, we've been doing a lot on this podcast to promote efforts to combat global warming and climate change, and I'm delighted to have back for a second time, John Pabon, who spent two decades trying to save our Earth. John's mission is to move sustainability from theory to practical strategies that help people and businesses make a real impact.

[00:00:25] He joins us today from his home in Melbourne, Australia. So stay with us. 

[00:00:32] Now over John's 20 year career, he's worked with the United Nations, McKinsey, A. C. Nielsen, and BSR, the world's largest sustainability focused business network. He is the founder of Fulcrum Strategic Advisors, Program Director for the Conference Board's Asia Sustainability Leaders Council.

[00:00:56] And is on the U. S. Green Chamber of Commerce Advisory Board. John is also the author of Sustainability for the Rest of Us, Your No Bullshit Five Point Plan for Saving the Planet. And that's basically what we talked about on his previous episode on this podcast. Now his latest book is The Great Greenwashing, How Corporations, Governments, and Influencers Are Lying to You, which we'll talk about today. John, welcome to the Lean to the Left podcast, buddy. 

[00:01:31] John Pabon: Bob, it's great to be back. Thanks so much. 

[00:01:34] Bob Gatty: Absolutely. Tell us about the Great Greenwashing and what it's all about. 

[00:01:39] John Pabon: Yeah, I don't know why I decided I wanted to do a second book. I guess I'm a little insane, but I started to notice as we came out the other end of the global pandemic and I know you just got over a bout of COVID as we're recording this, so I know we're still in a global pandemic.

[00:01:54] But as we got out the worst of it, I started to notice in my professional colleagues noticed as well, a massive uptick in greenwashing. And what that is basically when corporations say, yeah, we're doing good for the earth. We're green. We're eco friendly, but the reality may not be as altruistic. So sometimes they use it as a way to lie and market and get people to buy their products.

[00:02:14] And there was a massive uptick. So I thought, okay, John, time to do a second book. And so as I'm sure we'll get into today, I started doing heaps of research and realized as the title suggests, it's not just corporations and brands doing it. Is happening from governments, international organizations, celebrities, influencers, the lot are all doing this, trying to say they are good for the planet, when the reality probably isn't as true.

[00:02:43] Bob Gatty: You're saying that so nicely. In other words, those sons of bitches are lying through their teeth. 

[00:02:48] John Pabon: I'm a trained diplomat. I can't get away from it. 

[00:02:52] Bob Gatty: But I'm not, so I can say whatever the hell I want, right? Now, in your promo material, you say you filter out the BS from the truth. What the hell? What are you talking about, man?

[00:03:04] John Pabon: I think people, yeah, they don't really they're too diplomatic when it comes to a lot of this stuff because they're afraid, A, of at least from corporations being sued by them. That is a big one. And certainly when I went out looking for publishers for the second book, that was what a lot of the rejection letters said is, no, we don't want to be sued, but thanks anyways.

[00:03:21] But luckily I found a publisher that actually stood by Melbourne books here in Australia, but for the launch of the US book North America, the house of Anansi, which is a great publishing house out of Canada. So they decided to take a leap of faith and nobody's been sued yet.

[00:03:37] But I think that's why I talk about calling out the BS because a lot of people are not brave enough to do it, or they don't want to offend anybody, or they think that the way forward with building a better future is to. Be nice to everybody and kumbaya. And that's not really my thing. We tried that.

[00:03:52] It worked for a while, but it's not working anymore. The problems are too big to be kumbaya. So I think we need to call things out where we see it. And ideally, at least in my world, that's what's going to bring about change, not trying to hold hands around the world. 

[00:04:05] Bob Gatty: Yeah, now you say that Greenspeak, misdirection and green scamming are more prevalent than ever.

[00:04:11] John Pabon: Absolutely. Yeah. So those are the three tried and true ways that greenwashing happens. So the first is all this marketing speak around being eco friendly, being green. So you'll see green packaging. They love to do that as if that means anything or saying, we, we care about the earth, but not backing it up with any real meaningful statistics.

[00:04:32] So that's certainly one way. Yeah. Misdirection is another. So look over here, not over here. Look at this cute picture of kids on the front of our sustainability report, but not the child labor we have going on in Bangladesh, right? Don't look at that part. So then that's another way they love to do that.

[00:04:47] To download, just to have so many stats and reports. There's, there was a client I worked with many years ago, and I worked on their sustainability report and they, I kid you not, it ended up becoming over 300 page sustainability report because they wanted to include every single bit of data that they had.

[00:05:04] And while that may look super transparent, I think what they were trying to do is just bury people in information. So people gave up and really didn't pick, below the surface. And the final way is green scamming. And this is the most insidious and probably the scariest part of greenwashing that I didn't even know was going on, but Big cashed up organizations, usually the big dinosaurs like oil and gas, they'll actually fund front groups that on the surface look like they're doing something good for the planet, but really they're lobbying groups to throw people off the scent.

[00:05:35] So one of my favorites comes out of Europe and I can't remember the exact name, but it's in the book, but it's essentially a media company that by its title, you would assume they are looking at climate change news and views and X, Y, and Z. But In reality, they are throwing out fake statistics to try to discredit scientists, and it's funded by ExxonMobil.

[00:05:56] So these sort of things are the next the wild west, of greenwashing, where you don't even know what's happening to you, and it's not so easy to discern on the surface. 

[00:06:06] Bob Gatty: Wow, so really, it's misdirection is what you just said. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Setting up these fake, or not fake, but what do you, what are they?

[00:06:16] They're secondary entities. Lobbying groups. Lobbying groups. They're lobbying groups. 

[00:06:22] John Pabon: Essentially, yeah. And what we see a lot on social media now is heaps of statistics coming out, and a lot of it, especially from those type of groups, discrediting In all sorts of ways, climate change, but posing as if they are scientists and expecting nobody to actually do the research and realize these aren't scientists.

[00:06:40] These are marketing teams pushing out BS statistics. 

[00:06:45] Bob Gatty: So it's not just companies claiming that they're being environmentally responsible when they're not. They're actually taking it a step further, right? 

[00:06:54] John Pabon: And working against the whole thing. That's absolutely right. And again, it's those businesses that have a lot to lose by us building a better future.

[00:07:02] And I'm very much as anybody who listened to the last podcast we did together, I'm not an activist. I approached this very much from a dollars and cents angle where I know we have a reality we live within. I'm not telling people, give up your cell phones and international travel, go live off the grid.

[00:07:16] No, this is the world we have. I love to get on a plane and go to a beach in Thailand. Sure. I'm not giving up my cell phone either. How do we work within the reality we have and build a better future from that? So I'm not advocating us to get rid of everything overnight because that's not realistic, but these big Super polluting, the ones I call the most unsustainable of industries, they have a lot to lose. So they're working as hard as possible to make sure that they keep their paychecks coming in as long as possible 

[00:07:42] Bob Gatty: Now, do you feel like governments are trying to pull the wool over our eyes, the same way these businesses are? 

[00:07:50] John Pabon: I think they do it in a different way.

[00:07:52] So they're not pulling the wool over our eyes, per se. What they're doing is they've just washed their hands of the whole thing and they've given up. Unless it's politically expedient, which in most cases this is not, because sustainability, building a better future, we're talking long term. We're talking, a century into the future, and politicians think in two year cycles, so they're not thinking the long term for this, so they don't really care.

[00:08:13] The latest statistics show that there are exactly zero countries on track to meet their Paris climate targets which come up for renewal next year, so No government is doing anything. Some are doing better than others, but by and large, I don't think putting our eggs in the basket of government's helping us build a better future is probably a good thing to bet on.

[00:08:33] Bob Gatty: Yeah. Now, John, I know that you live in Australia. And you're not a voter in the United States, but we're coming up 

[00:08:41] John Pabon: Oh, I vote in the United States. Oh, you do? I do. I pay my taxes, so I vote. 

[00:08:46] Bob Gatty: Oh that's cool. Okay. We're coming up on another election at the end of 2024. Obviously, we've got Trump waiting in the wings, wanting to come back.

[00:08:58] Do you feel like that's a danger when it comes to climate change? 

[00:09:03] John Pabon: It's an interesting one, and I'm going to say I'm torn. He's being really careful, people. I am being careful, I am being very careful. I am very disappointed in the Biden administration and what they've done in terms of sustainability, climate change, they've not had a strong a performance as one would assume those from the left hand side of the political spectrum would actually have had.

[00:09:25] They've done a lot of things like the willow project letting the gulf go out for tender on oil contracts that they've done a lot of bad things. And I think. And I'll need to look this up statistically, but the last time I checked, which was about a year ago the Biden administration and the Trump administration had basically had the same performance negatively when it comes to climate change in the United States, policy wise, contracts, et cetera.

[00:09:48] So they're on par with each other. So when it comes to Trump administration versus a potential future Biden administration and climate change, they're the same. Now. Does that mean that everything else is okay? No, of course. I think a potential future Trump administration would be Terrible for the United States on a lot of different fronts beyond climate change, but if we're just parsing it down to climate change and sustainability, I don't see one as being worse or better than the other, which is a really unfortunate and hard thing to say.

[00:10:17] I wasn't trying to be diplomatic. I was trying to, come to terms with the fact I was about to say it and it's a really sad thing. 

[00:10:24] Bob Gatty: Okay. How can people tell when they're being lied to about environmental issues and climate change, 

[00:10:32] John Pabon: John. Yeah, the unfortunate thing. And it's one of those special things that we have to deal with being on whatever timeline we're in right now.

[00:10:42] We've been facing a lot over the past 30 years. It's unfortunate we had to do this all at once. But when it comes to knowing whether or not a corporation or a government or an influence or celebrity is lying to you, we have to do our research. And I know as I say that, people are going to be like, I don't have time to do that.

[00:10:56] And you know what? I don't either. I don't have time to do research. I don't have the inclination to do research, but that's the unfortunate reality is if you don't want to be lied to, you need to do a little bit of this. But when it comes to things at the grocery store, going out, buying things on the high street, there are a few telltale signs, right?

[00:11:15] We talked about some of them already. It's the overtly green packaging. It's the cute motifs of I don't know, pastoral scenes or flowers. They love to use this stuff and it doesn't mean anything, or just use your sixth sense and, do a bit of reading on the back of the packaging. And nine times out of 10, these marketing teams are not that slick.

[00:11:34] You can really read between the lines and go, Oh, that, that sounds a bit fishy. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to take a step away from whatever product that might be. And the other unfortunate reality of today is if you want to, to Shop sustainably, be good, be green. You have to pay a little more now.

[00:11:51] That's not as bad as it used to be. And it's improving day by day as these things start to scale up, but you have to research and you have to pay a bit more, and those are usually going to help you get over a lot of the potential lies in greenwashing that a corporation is trying to sell you.

[00:12:07] Not easy, but not impossible either. 

[00:12:09] Bob Gatty: Okay. You say that the Greenies, and I think I asked you this on the last show, but I wanted to ask you again. You say that the Greenies and the Echo Warriors have actually made the world a worse place. Why do you say that? 

[00:12:26] John Pabon: We've been talking about sustainability, building a better future.

[00:12:29] The modern environmental movement since the early 1960s, we usually chalk it up to 1962, when Rachel Carson published Silent Spring. And at the beginning of the movement the eco activists, the ones, the greenies that are really on the forefront of things, they did an amazing job leading us to really changing behavior, to raising awareness and to, to getting us to where we are today, which is great. I don't discredit them and I'm so happy they did that. What I think the issue is now though, is the problems have become so vastly large that just raising awareness and being loud about things is not going to solve our problems. We've moved from now, if Somebody doesn't know there's something going on, then either they're ignoring it, not paying attention, or they're purposely, saying, I don't want to be involved in that.

[00:13:14] So the thing now is no longer raising awareness. It's actually telling people, okay, this is what you can do. To make a difference. I think that's the missing piece. So the converting people to actual action is the missing piece. Now, why I take issue with a lot of activists, not all, but a lot is they're very much still holding on to the outdated idea that we need to raise awareness.

[00:13:34] And so they're not going as far as I think they could, and probably not fulfilling the mission they think in their heads that they're doing. So I challenge them to go a bit further and to show people not to throw tomato soup on a painting. What is that going to do? But say, these are the three things you can do to make a change today in your life.

[00:13:53] It's not about raising awareness. It's about actually, and I'm going to use a marketing term, convert people to action. And I want to be clear. That's a marketing term, not a religious term. Every time I say convert, people think, Oh, he's trying to convert us. And I'm. I'm not talking about religion. 

[00:14:06] Bob Gatty: That's good.

[00:14:06] I don't like to talk about religion either. Although I will tell you this, that I'm very proud of this. I signed up yesterday, I signed a contract to get solar on my house. What do you think of that? Oh, 

[00:14:18] John Pabon: that's amazing. Yeah. That's great. These are the type of actions and the, to make it easy for people, right?

[00:14:22] We're not talking about having to do everything all at once. You don't have to be a perfect environmentalist, just making these actions that move the needle in the right direction. That's good enough. There's plenty, there's billions of other people doing the right thing. You don't have to do it all.

[00:14:36] Bob Gatty: I've been considering the idea for a long time and just happened that some people came by and had a lot of information about the various tax credits and benefits and things that are available. And it just seemed like to me, it made a lot of sense. I've been wanting to do it. I feel like it's the right move.

[00:15:00] And my next thing is going to be to get an EV. I want to, I want an electric vehicle. 

[00:15:05] John Pabon: And, And I think that hits the nail on the head with a lot of this is when people are talking about, okay, what can I do? How can I change? Yeah. Economics is such an important part because there's no reason we can't discuss being economically sound or even for a business making money and doing good.

[00:15:22] I think we need to talk about that more because the two do work hand in hand and from a personal level, things that make more sense economically, especially in the times that we're in now, why wouldn't you do it? Especially if it makes more sense to build a better future. And I tell this to a lot of people when they say things like, how can I consume more sustainably?

[00:15:41] Think about things as quality over quantity, right? Especially when it comes to things like buying clothes, why would you buy something from a fast fashion real retailer? That's going to fall apart in six months versus if you're financially able to investing a little bit more on something that's a little more carefully made, that's going to last you a lifetime.

[00:15:59] It just makes more economic sense. 

[00:16:02] Bob Gatty: Okay. So looking at all of this, what's your outlook? What do you feel like there's real progress being made on climate change? 

[00:16:09] John Pabon: Absolutely. And it's not just a Pollyanna sort of thing. I work with businesses day in, day out. So I see the stuff that's going on behind the scenes.

[00:16:16] I see the hard work that they're doing. And I know a lot of people will listen to that and go, Oh, sell out. That's not true. And it is true. I'm sorry to say, but, we don't like corporations a lot of times, but some of them are doing really great things. So if I had a crystal ball. I would say that in 10, 15 years time, the way things are going, by the time you get to the shelf, all choices will be sustainable good for the earth choices because those dinosaurs that aren't playing ball, there's not going to be a space for them. One of the silver linings of capitalism is that the market takes care of those that don't respond. And those companies now that aren't responding, the market. We'll take care of eventually with the exception of some of the big nasty companies that I just have no idea how we're going to do away with like oil and gas petrochemicals, which for the time being, we need to live in our society, but eventually we'll need to figure out a way to phase them out.

[00:17:06] And when you talked about buying an EV, I think that's a really great example of what I'm referring to, because we've talked about EVs for forever. I remember being a kid growing up in Southern California and they said, by 1990, all cars are going to be EVs. And that obviously didn't happen.

[00:17:21] But today, pretty much every major car company has at least some sort of an EV in their range. I think Toyota was the biggest holdout and they finally did it. So now car companies can't say, Oh, EV is our differentiator. Because that's not the case. So they need to be thinking, okay, what do we do now to differentiate beyond an electric vehicle?

[00:17:40] So that gets the entire industry into a virtuous cycle to think of the next thing. And I don't work with automotive clients, but I have plenty of conversations with automotive sustainability folks. And there are some car companies now, major car companies that are already thinking along the lines of, okay, how do we phase out making automobiles entirely.

[00:18:02] That's the thinking they're at now. So knowing there's writing on the wall that people are not going to be driving combustion vehicles in the not too distant future. So they're thinking, okay, can we invest in infrastructure? Can we entirely divest from automotive and go into something else?

[00:18:18] So these are the type of innovations that are now happening in the thinking that's happening because we've entered into that virtuous cycle. So when I say that brands are changing. Corporations are changing for the better. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about, which for most people listening you would have no idea that's happening, but as somebody who's behind the scenes behind the curtain, I'm letting you peek back a little bit to know that, yes, there is good things happening.

[00:18:41] And if I didn't see that, I wouldn't get up in the morning to do my job. I would, go work somewhere else because it'd be a hell of a lot easier. So I want to make sure that at least, if I'm going to be pushing crap uphill, it's at least in the right direction.

[00:18:52] Bob Gatty: John, I want to be clear.

[00:18:55] Are you saying that car companies are trying to figure out a way how they can exist without making cars? 

[00:19:01] John Pabon: Some of them actually are, these are conversations that are on the table now. Yeah. So they're thinking way down the line. What companies are you talking about? I can't say.

[00:19:08] You can't say. No, but I'm, it's not some mom and pop shop. These are major established automotive brands that have been around for a century. If they're not 

[00:19:16] Bob Gatty: making cars, what how are people going to get around? 

[00:19:18] John Pabon: So these are the conversations they're having is what, how do they change all of this?

[00:19:22] And we're not talking tomorrow, right? This is a 50 year vision they're thinking of, but that type of a conversation would have been, we would have never thought that would have existed, 10 years ago. So they're thinking along the lines of not just saying they're building a better future, right?

[00:19:38] Cause that would be greenwashing, but if they're going to stand by that statement, how do they actually make it a reality? And like we talked about a second ago, making it an economically viable model for them, knowing that consumers are in a lot of the world increasingly saying, yeah, maybe cars aren't the best idea for us.

[00:19:55] So getting one step ahead of where the market could potentially be heading. Will they do it? I don't know. I don't think it's realistic to think car companies are going to give up cars, but it would be nice to see them investing maybe in a few other things that do actually bring about a better future.

[00:20:10] Bob Gatty: I could see that. I just can't see how we won't have cars in the future. Yeah. What are we going to do? Ride around on our bicycles or what? 

[00:20:21] John Pabon: Some people will. It depends where you are. Yeah, of 

[00:20:23] Bob Gatty: course, but. Come on. How can you take a family of four on vacation on a couple of bikes? I 

[00:20:32] John Pabon: mean, maybe we'll be investing in rocket ships finally and it'll be like, 

[00:20:35] Bob Gatty: all the, yeah.

[00:20:38] Okay. Alright. I'm just going to ask you a big question. Do you believe the world is facing a climate crisis and if so, why do you say that? So, 

[00:20:48] John Pabon: To be clear to anybody on here, I'm not a, on the science side of sustainability. I don't, I'm not going to be able to back all of this up with statistics.

[00:20:55] But, I trust the scientists. The 98 percent of scientists that say climate change is happening, I trust them because they, they did the time in school to, to tell me the truth. So I'm not going to say that it's not happening. And I trust that they're telling me the honest truth. And if it wasn't 98 percent of scientists that agreed, I would maybe question it, you don't get 98 percent of scientists to agree on something unless it's actually happening.

[00:21:17] Bob Gatty: That's true. That's true. What do you say to politicians who refuse to accept the fact that we are in this situation where we've got to do something, and we've got to do something meaningful?

[00:21:32] John Pabon: For those, And here's the thing that I think a lot of politicians play into is they want us to think that they're dumb.

[00:21:42] I think a lot of them do. Politicians are not stupid people. They know exactly what they're doing and every move is very calculated with the exception of a few, and I'm sure. We're all thinking of the same few stupid politicians that are genuinely dumb, but for the most of them, they have massive teams of people, they are intelligent people themselves.

[00:21:59] So they know exactly what they're doing when they say what they say. So for those that still claim that climate change isn't real, that it's not happening, it's not as bad as it seems, They're not doing that out of ignorance. They're doing it because it's manipulative and they know exactly what they're doing.

[00:22:13] So I have no time for that. If it was somebody saying it out of ignorance, then we could have a conversation about, the reality and what's happening and talk a bit about the science and what's happening. But for somebody who's purposely manipulating and In a form greenwashing lying to people from the opposite direction.

[00:22:30] What am I going to do to get them to not be manipulative? I don't think there's a way to do that. And plus, I'm not inclined to be arguing with people. There's enough people that are doing the right thing that we need to be working and pushing Their motivations forward versus trying to stop lying, manipulative politicians, which is a big ask.

[00:22:49] Bob Gatty: That's a big ask. Okay. Now I know a minute ago you said that you felt like Biden wasnt much different from Trump when it comes to dealing with this issue. But Trump continues to defend the fossil fuel industry and denigrates efforts to replace coal and oil with sustainable energy like wind and solar.

[00:23:10] And Biden doesn't do that. He recognizes that we need to get the sustainable energy and he's done a lot of things, but maybe not as much as what you think he should have done. Your thoughts about all of that, though, about danger of having a leader running a major country in this world that continues to defend the fossil fuel industry and just refuses to accept the fact that sustainable energy sources like wind and solar are realistic and and need to be embraced.

[00:23:45] John Pabon: I think with when it comes to at least the executive branch of government in the United States there are things happening that no matter who may be in charge or what party might be in charge, the market will continue to evolve and take care of outside of politics. So you have sort of two streams running, right?

[00:24:03] The politicians can certainly. make or break things being fast tracked, right? So they can say, yeah, we're going to allow for oil and gas, or we're going to shut down those contracts, which Biden just recently did, which is a, a definite kudo to him. So shutting down a lot of potential bad things, or they could fast track it by just, letting the floodgates open, but regardless of the four year cycle and the executive business still continues to think longer term and does its own kind of thing, which as I mentioned before, is moving in the right direction.

[00:24:32] So the use of renewable energy is the use of more sustainable type of energies that's happening I think regardless of who is in the executive, but it would be nice to have someone in the executive that at least allows these things to, to fast track. And take up steam, but that stuff's already happening.

[00:24:51] So again, putting the, our entire eggs in the basket of politics is probably a wrong move. I think we should trust. I can't believe I'm about to say this and people are probably going to take out the sound bite and reinterpret it the wrong way, but I think we can trust corporations more than we can trust government in terms of moving the needle on, on building a better future, particularly when it comes to these large type of infrastructure investments, because they already know that's the stuff they're supposed to do.

[00:25:15] Again, with the exception of a few big baddies that are manipulating situations, I think these corporations have already been moving that way regardless of the moves of politics. 

[00:25:25] Bob Gatty: Okay. John, I've I've asked you a bunch of questions dealing with the overall issue of climate change and global warming and what we can do and all of that, but we haven't really talked much about your book.

[00:25:37] So do you want to talk about that a little bit? 

[00:25:40] John Pabon: Yeah, sure. We talked a bit mentioning greenwashing and the stuff that's going on, the great greenwashing when I first looked at it, I thought, okay, we'll take corporations to task and be done with it. As I'm pulling back the layers of the onion, I realize, oh my gosh, it's everybody.

[00:25:54] So we talked about governments a bit already, but certainly international organizations are greenwashing. I talk about the United Nations and a lot of its big climate change conferences that go on and how that's greenwashing. International organizations like FIFA and the International Olympic Committee are doing it, sports washing and organizations using the language of sustainability when they're really not.

[00:26:17] But then peeling the layers back even more, you have celebrities doing it and how a lot of these big, award shows talk about how green they are. But if you look at some of the swag bags they get, which include, $50,000 vouchers for private jets, it's not all authentic and certainly individual celebrities and the ultra wealthy and, the Bezos is of the world, taking their phallic rocket ships to space.

[00:26:39] All of these people also claiming they're doing good things for the earth, when in reality, you can see pretty well on the surface that they're not really as good as they claim to be. Really in the book, taking all of those cases and bringing them out, but also of course, talking about the good things that are going on because there are plenty of those cases too.

[00:26:57] And then at the very end of the book, turning the mirror around a bit and questioning whether all of us are greenwashing in our lives, but challenging all of us to think, okay, I'm doing X, Y, or Z, but can I be doing something even more sustainable with my life to build about, to bring about a better future?

[00:27:13] Bob Gatty: Okay, good. That sounds like a great piece, and I hope you have good fortune with it. You're saying that it's now available in Australia and Great Britain, New Zealand, and it'll be available in the United States when? 

[00:27:33] John Pabon: 12 March, so it's coming up soon. 

[00:27:36] Bob Gatty: Okay, and the publishing company in the United States?

[00:27:40] John Pabon: The House of Anansi. If you just look up the great greenwashing on any platform it'll bring you, it'll geo locate you to the United States and you'll be able to find it pretty easily. 

[00:27:50] Bob Gatty: Okay. So people can by that time we can. pick it up on Amazon or any place like that, right? 

[00:27:58] John Pabon: Absolutely.

[00:27:58] Some retailers should have it as well. I don't have the list, but yeah, you should be able to find it at bookstores 

[00:28:03] Bob Gatty: too. Okay, good. All right, John. You got anything else you'd like to add? 

[00:28:07] John Pabon: No, this has been perfect. It's been great to reconnect. 

[00:28:10] Bob Gatty: Absolutely. I thank you very much for being with us again on the lean to the left podcast and you guys listening and watching, I hope you found some interesting information here. I think that I was surprised when he talked about influencers greenwashing. I would have never thought about that. 

[00:28:31] John Pabon: Neither did I, until I started to research it. And a fun little fact that people that are fans of this particular celebrity are not going to but Taylor Swift has been recognized for the second year in a row as the most polluting celebrity on the planet.

[00:28:44] I didn't know that by a large margin. And really they pin it down to her use of her private jet because she was going to see her new boyfriend multiple times over the course of the years. Her environmental impact is the worst of all celebrities. Congratulations, Taylor Swift. 

[00:28:57] Bob Gatty: Yeah, I guess she probably is gonna be taking her private jet to Baltimore.

[00:29:02] Yep. For this. By the time this shows this game will be over with the. The game against the Ravens. Anyway, John, thanks so much. I appreciate it, buddy. Cheers. 

[00:29:15] John Pabon: Thanks.