Helping Women Master Power & Achieve Success

Show Transcript

Nicole Devlin: On Women & Power

[00:00:00] Bob Gatty: Hey guys, today we're with Nicole Devlin. She's life coach and host of the From the Nth Power podcast and we're going to talk about that very topic, power, and how it relates to us in our work, business, and personal lives. We'll focus mostly on women and many of the key issues that women face today, so stay with us.

[00:00:23] Nicole Devlin's passion comes from 30 years experience guiding and coaching. Intelligent people. She says her purpose is to help people grow in alignment with their vision and goals, motivating people into better realities. Practically and effectively, Nicole has helped many women master the power to reach their highest aspirations through a practice defined by personal responsibility and spirituality.

[00:00:53] In her free time, Nicole mentors young women around self esteem and emotional intelligence. She believes we'll change dysfunctional government and business systems by strengthening personal power through spiritual connection and growing self awareness. Nicole, welcome to the Lean to the Left podcast.

[00:01:15] Nicole Devlin: Thanks, Bob. Super exciting to be here. I love this. Thank you for that introduction. That was great. 

[00:01:20] Bob Gatty: First thing, tell us a little bit about the Nth Power podcast and what you do with it, Nicole. 

[00:01:27] Nicole Devlin: So primarily the podcast started as a labor of love, something that during the pandemic, when I was just watching all this intense stuff and fear and anger and weirdness and craziness come around and swirl around and tornado through our lives, it seemed to me that everybody was so focused on what was happening outside of them, and all I saw was more powerlessness rather than more empowerment.

[00:01:56] And so I started to think of this idea of exponentiality. And the idea that if I am powerful and feel powerful, which I am and which I do, there is something from within me that supersedes anything happening around me. And then when I bring that up out of me and into my life, the things around me change rather than focusing on I can't change this, but let me yell and scream about it and get upset and frustrated. So I just started to talk about that, talk about internal power and starting with the seed within you and growing it like exponentiality multiplying by itself. And I just started to talk about that and I committed to a weekly podcast and I think I'm about two years into it.

[00:02:38] And I really like it. I just now I'm starting to invite guests to my podcast too. So that's been an interesting switch also. 

[00:02:44] Bob Gatty: Yeah. I was going to ask you if you did that. Cause when I started my podcast at first it was a narrations of my blogs on my site, which is used to be called not fake news.

[00:02:56] It's not called, it's now called Lean to the Left. Duh. And and then I decided to invite guests and now I'm on episode number 604 and into three years. So it's a lot of fun. So I agree with you there. 

[00:03:11] Nicole Devlin: Yes, it is. Yes, 

[00:03:12] Bob Gatty: it is. And I have to tell you, Nicole, and I hope you'll find this to be true.

[00:03:18] Having guests on has just been, it's just been wonderful because it allows, at least in my case, it allows me just to talk with the most interesting people that I've just ever come across and it's just so much fun. Anyway, I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. 

[00:03:37] Nicole Devlin: I do, and I'm meeting and I, when I look at the different ways to meet people and invite them on my podcast, I try to get people who have diversity of thinking.

[00:03:46] Yeah. People who are more critical, people who are more emotionally intelligent, people who are deeply embedded in spiritual ideas versus people who are very political or very business oriented or much more structural and analytical. And so it's for great conversations because if you dig deep enough, there's these common threads we all have yeah,

[00:04:05] yeah. That's been great.

[00:04:08] Bob Gatty: I'm sure that your podcast fits nicely into your practice, right? 

[00:04:12] Nicole Devlin: Oh, yeah, it does. It certainly does. And if for someone who's like a life coach, effectively is what I am vocationally speaking and by title, it's this subject of power and personal power and even like a lot of the other things that people are talking about.

[00:04:30] They're so nuanced. There's so many different facets. We could talk all day. People's opinions vary. Their experiences vary. Their educational leans and political leans and, pepper their opinions and their experiences. And it's fascinating how much there is to talk about. 

[00:04:48] Bob Gatty: Okay. Yeah. Talk a little bit about your practice and what you do to help women achieve their goals and objectives.

[00:04:57] Are your clients only women or do you work with men? 

[00:05:00] Nicole Devlin: I do work with both, and I have, but the mentoring that you described in the beginning is mostly with women and that started a long time ago, and it's not necessary in severally in the professional realm that's just been something that took off on a personal level.

[00:05:14] About a year ago during Women's History Month, somebody asked me, how I feel about women's issues. Things like, do I march? How outspoken am I? And what do you think, he said to me, is the most prominent issue facing women today? I said, you know what? At the end of the day, and I think this goes back to my mother's generation, my generation, the younger generations, it's confidence.

[00:05:40] Professional women, stay at home moms, the not enoughness and the low self esteem and this idea that they're somehow starting behind the eight ball and all that kind of stuff. So what I aim to do in my coaching progress, and if you know about coaching you're deeply listening to another person to find out where they're at and where they struggle. And there are consistent themes for men and for women and in the professional realm versus the personal realm is to help people swim past some of those limiting beliefs Up level their life to the place that they want to go through specific goals and actions and really get clear who they want to be.

[00:06:26] So with women, I think the beauty of the feminine is that could be anything you want, especially in the world we live in today. And I think sometimes the struggle that I see with the confidence is somehow the message is still in there that no, it can't be anything I want. There are these obstructions, and I think some of those obstructions are more internal than external, so I help people dig into those obstructions and limiting beliefs and core problems of esteem and worth and etc, to define and design a different way to live in a different, which projects a different outlook onto their lives.

[00:07:02] Bob Gatty: Okay. Now on your website, Nicole which is Nicole Devlin. com, by the way you know that, but our guests, 

[00:07:11] Nicole Devlin: I hope I know that Bob, 

[00:07:13] Bob Gatty: it just occurred to me when I read that. She knows this already. What am I saying this for? You asked this question, is your job or business making you stuck, frustrated, unhappy, and you invite viewers to take your quiz and find out what to do.

[00:07:30] So tell us what are the reasons this happens and what's your advice for those people who are experiencing such frustration and unhappiness. 

[00:07:40] Nicole Devlin: So why that happens. 

[00:07:43] Bob Gatty: Look at that. I have her speechless. 

[00:07:46] Nicole Devlin: I'm thinking about it because it's a two part question, so I want to make sure I reiterate the question and remind myself to answer the second part.

[00:07:52] I got it. What are the reasons for that stuckness? Yeah. Human nature is such, I believe, anyway, male or female, professional or personal, once again, that we go into things, I think, with the best of intentions and with excitement and enthusiasm that things are going to be... Whatever the best. Yeah, people roaming around that maybe are naysayers or not or half glass half full and don't see things like that.

[00:08:18] But ultimately, when we enter a new thing, a new job, a new career, a new business, there's excitement. There's passion. There's enthusiasm. There's the idea of pending joy. And then there's trepidation at the change. And I think what happens with people is when things start to go awry and doesn't actually meet that expectation, they don't exactly know what to do. And more people than not stick with something long past the point of it making them unhappy. And they get what we call stuck. And most of the time, that stuckness is brought on by Oh, it'll be just as bad anywhere else. Oh, I don't have I won't get paid as much if I move.

[00:09:01] Oh, it's too much risk to leave my job and start a business. Oh All the negative assumptions of what could go wrong. I think that's so part of the psyche, right? As you're evaluating risk, but people, if they don't find a way to work through that by either making their current circumstances better or finding a new opportunity, they get this feeling like they're just stuck.

[00:09:25] Because again they see the problem is outside of them. All my boss is a jerk or a money's a problem, or, my husband or wife would be upset if I made this change and again, if they could just go back to what's inside them and get re engaged with that feeling of excitement and build out a plan.

[00:09:44] They don't stay stuck, but most people stay stuck because they're full of excuses about why they can't change, which is effectively boil it all down for you, cliff notes, it's all about fear, and most people's fears are subconscious. Most people's fears are as old as they are. And it's hard to talk through those things.

[00:10:03] And you, no matter how smart you are, you can't do it yourself, but smart people are like, Oh, I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. I'll just stay another month. I'll stay until I get my bonus. I'll figure it out. To the second part of your question about what piece of advice would you give? Selfishly speaking, I'd say hire a coach.

[00:10:21] Now, secondarily though, picture for you, you got to start looking inside at what moves you, what made it motivates you, what you really want. Reconnecting to does this job situation, what have you fit really who I am? And some people need to take a step back even further than that, because they can't even ask, answer the question, who am I?

[00:10:46] They'll say, Oh, I'm an accountant, or I am Nicole, or I am yada. And that's not necessarily who they are is deeper. It's the entirety of their experience, their life path, their journey, who they want to be as a part of it also. So people get stuck and then they get frustrated and then they get unhappy.

[00:11:04] And then I'll just end on this as the last part of your question. They're convinced that it, the more stuck you stay, the reason why unhappiness and stress and further anxiety and depression occur is because you continue to talk about how horrible it is. And you'll talk about it to anyone who will listen.

[00:11:23] And it's just an ongoing, oh, it's so horrible or it's the more you talk about something, the bigger it gets both externally and internally. And so there's that feeling of stuck. And then the more you don't move on your displeasure, the worse it gets internally. 

[00:11:37] Bob Gatty: Okay. So in your practice you work with people who are having these issues, right?

[00:11:44] Yes. And how does it work? They come to you in your office and you sit and talk like a psychologist or how does that all work? 

[00:11:53] Nicole Devlin: Oh, good one. A psychologist or any kind of like therapist or someone trained in that realm is very different than a coach. So coach is more focused on action.

[00:12:03] A coach isn't necessarily dealing with mental health issues, right? And ideally, a coach would refer to someone who's more of an expert in mental health issues, such as a social worker, or imagine family therapist or something like that. There is an assumption that the person that you're talking to is a sound mind and body, and that they are just having feelings of you can have feelings of depression without being depressed, right?

[00:12:29] You can have feelings of sadness without being grief stricken or stuck in that. And a lot of people that are stuck, they simply need a hand to hold. An accountability partner and a plan of action. Okay. Coaching is more geared towards that. When you go through a coaching certification, I would say the 2 foundations of it are asking the next right question and deeply listening, right?

[00:12:58] Which means it's not your agenda. It's not about advice giving it's not about. Here's what I think your problem is. Here's an answer. Boom. And you pay me money to put it on a plate. There's a presumption that the answers are inside of you and it takes another person. Oddly enough, even though you're the one in your body, that it takes another person who's trained to listen and ask the right questions to get those answers out of you and provide permission, validation, acknowledgement and anything else.

[00:13:26] You plan goals. And anything else you need to move forward. Okay, 

[00:13:32] Bob Gatty: now what are some of the questions that are not being asked today about women's issues? You asked me to ask you that question, so I'm asking it. 

[00:13:44] Nicole Devlin: What are some of the questions that aren't being asked today? What am I responsible for? What does it mean to be a woman?

[00:13:53] And I think as the identity topic comes up and gets thrown around, that question can be something that people get distracted by. I, in the discussion about rights, let's call it women's rights or the feminine, and I've done, just to give you some background, my mother was the, not entirely what I'd call a hippie, but definitely someone who in her day and time was, a bit out of the box revolutionary, right?

[00:14:21] Okay. 

[00:14:23] Bob Gatty: Huh? Is that where you got some of this stuff? Yeah, 

[00:14:27] Nicole Devlin: yeah, to some degree. She was a very devout religious person who got divorced and then was not really a part of that religious community anymore. Had three kids and was trying to figure out how to go to work and make ends meet in the early 70s, right?

[00:14:45] So a lot of what I was taught about being feminine, being independent, being strong was a sort of sometimes, if you ask me, a blessing. And it's in its totality, but also a curse because I didn't know about things like the softer side of being feminine, and my mother's actually very soft, but the message I got was be strong.

[00:15:08] And, sometimes I think. It's all about riding a fine line of balance, for lack of a better word, in the sense that I am a woman who, just like every other human being on the planet, has energies of masculine and feminine, but the strong thing provoked me to become more masculine in a lot of my communication style, a lot of my way of going about my life, being very assertive, almost to the point of perfectionistic aggression within myself point 

[00:15:39] Bob Gatty: of being a pain in the ass.

[00:15:40] Is that what you're trying to say? 

[00:15:42] Nicole Devlin: Am I a pain in the ass? I wouldn't say I'm a pain in the ass. I'm a New Yorker.

[00:15:46] There are some people who might be listening and being like those are one in the same thing. Touche. You're probably spot on about that. Yeah, I speak my mind. I say what I want. I'm very direct. And And I didn't avail myself of the softer side of listening, passive, taking a backseat. And so back to what's missing in the conversation, like a couple of years ago let's say starting in 2016, women started to get more vocal. A lot of the things that people were talking about, the conversations that were happening with my female friends of which, by the way, I have a lot of female friends.

[00:16:22] They were disjointed overly emotional in a way that I was like, I don't even know what to do with this energy. And it wasn't like I was not capable of listening to someone who was upset. It threw me off. And it started me down the path of what does this all look like?

[00:16:39] What is it going to look like? How do I feel about myself as a woman? What am I responsible for in terms of my being, my expression, my example, my capacity to be assertive and strong and confident as a woman, but also to be able to be soft and movable and creative and just going with the flow.

[00:17:00] And I think that. That's what the feminine is to me and that's what's missing is you hear a lot of this talk That's very lopsided around. This is what women's rights look like. This is what it means to be feminine .This is what it means to be a woman, and I find when I start having one on one conversations with my friends Who won't be as loud in their point of view, they feel the way I do is they don't really know where their voice belongs in this overarching what often comes across as angry kind of energy. They don't know where to insert their voice into that. So I'm just I'm just going to insert my voice because it's who I am. It doesn't matter.

[00:17:37] There's no right or wrong here. 

[00:17:39] Bob Gatty: Okay. So I have another question for you. How is it that women sometimes keep other women stuck? Oh,

[00:17:51] Nicole Devlin: Okay. So I'm going to answer that question on the level of business. Because I also recognize that. Actually, I'm going to have a two pronged answer to that. My experience in the past couple of years of women in business is, and again, this is like the kind of conversation and topic that gets really skewed, I've worked for a couple of women in leadership, C suite VP positions, and There's the sense that I'm just, to be blunt, working for another guy who just happens to have some boobs.

[00:18:23] It's not a different or more nurturing relationship. And I know women that are female leaders that are astoundingly capable, intelligent, beautiful, natural, creative. And I, that hasn't been my experience in the past couple of years. And there was this thing way back when called the queen bee phenomenon.

[00:18:42] Do you know what that is? No, it was basically because positions in power or leadership were sparse in, in, in business or corporate America that one would suggest or think that when a woman rose up, she'd easily give a hand to bring other women up with her. And what happened was the opposite occurred, that once a woman rose up, she recognized that there was so little room for women, that she became more protective and exclusive of her position.

[00:19:09] And thereby excluding other women is the sentence, right? Now I wasn't there when this was developed and that, but that has been some of my experience some of the time. Which again, if in fact that does still happen, then the women below this said woman in a position of power may in fact be holding down or holding back.

[00:19:27] Like I had a contractual gig some short time ago for a non profit, very like what I would call feminine driven organization, lots of talk about how you feel, etc. And the woman in charge was Oftentimes very aggressively either indifferent or dismissive of other, not even just women, but people and what they had to say.

[00:19:51] To just answer just to flip over because I don't even know what I want to continue to say about that to the more personal side, in the past couple of years, like a lot of the women that I knew that were very angry. Let's just say about the me too movement and very angry about the political scene at that point in time.

[00:20:07] Again, there was such a strong feeling and strong sentiment that even the hint that you could feel differently was like, Yeah. Oh, you didn't even want to speak up. You didn't want to say anything because you're like, I don't even want to incite more emotion or ingest more emotion into this topic. So I'm just gonna lay back and watch and I just watched women I know a long time.

[00:20:32] It was interesting. I don't even know if I can elaborate more. It was definitely disruptive. It was definitely hard to sit through. And I also learned a lot, right? So that's the other part of the beauty of life. If you can sit back, like you asking me when we started, we're just going to see where it goes.

[00:20:50] If you can watch and trust that things are moving in the direction they're supposed to go, you're gonna be alright. You have to say about the subject or not. 

[00:21:01] Bob Gatty: When it comes to all these women's issues, and there's plenty of them, and plenty of areas where, action needs to be taken, I'm sure.

[00:21:09] Yes. But lots of times, it just seems we're going to blame the men. It's their fault. It's not our fault. You can't do that. 

[00:21:18] Nicole Devlin: Are you asking me if I can do it? I can do anything. I'm asking you, is it right 

[00:21:22] Bob Gatty: just to blame men for the problems that women have? 

[00:21:26] Nicole Devlin: In short, the answer is no. So if there's a system, and I don't even want to say this out loud, but I'm gonna. If there's a system, sexism, racism, misogyny, guess what? We've all created it. I don't, people don't like that because they're like, Whoa, what do you mean? I was just over here doing my thing and it's not my fault that people are sexist.

[00:21:48] When I say we all created it, Nobody's pointing the finger at you as yourself as an individual, but there's just all these ways that we buy into things and then turn around and say we don't like the way it is. But how many times did you speak up or decide that? That wasn't okay and you weren't going to do that or live like that versus keep your mouth shut.

[00:22:11] And again, we all know that wasn't easy. Like for example, for my mother going into the work world and probably having her butt smacked and, people doing things to her that if it was today, she would have probably quit and sued that, like it was a different time. It was a different way.

[00:22:26] It was a different mentality. But we've created what we have now. And for me, it's up to me to change it. I'm not content to sit around and complain about men, first off, quite frankly, because I love men. Okay. And I love everything about masculine energy, including that within me. And so for me to sit back and be like, Oh you're the problem.

[00:22:47] And if you'd get out of my way, I can be okay. That's the very thing my podcast is trying to away from. You can't, there's no peace. Okay, what is on something or somebody else? Do what you can to make it different. Change the message outward from what you think and feel change the way things.

[00:23:09] There's a million Mary like suggestions I could make of how to change your mindset so you can be at more at peace with what is and then sit back and decide what you want to do to make it different. 

[00:23:20] Bob Gatty: What are some of the stereotypes that women have to deal with when it comes to all of this?

[00:23:27] Nicole Devlin: Are we talking stereotypes socially, with men, with women? 

[00:23:30] Bob Gatty: Yeah in terms of, I guess the question is, how do women step into greater power without allowing stereotypes to continue to define them? I guess that's the question. 

[00:23:42] Nicole Devlin: Like the angry woman, the crazy bitch, that kind of stuff. This is the thing, I don't, Okay, let's go back to the confidence issue.

[00:23:51] Okay. I never want to come across as a crazy B. 

[00:23:56] Bob Gatty: I don't want to come across as a what? 

[00:23:59] Nicole Devlin: A crazy bitch. 

[00:24:00] Bob Gatty: Okay. 

[00:24:02] Nicole Devlin: I don't want to be an angry woman. There's something highly unsettling about that because it feels like a loss of control. And so I think that even as I step back to what I said earlier about that feeling around 2016, that was a beautiful thing in retrospect, because anything that makes me uncomfortable, it's up to me to get comfortable with or change it.

[00:24:24] And so the stereotype of the person who's highly elevated and angry and everybody knows. That anybody who's emotionally intelligent knows that anger is a valid emotion, right? It's not about whether or not you get angry. It's what you do with the anger, right? And if you've delved at all into things like there's a book called power versus force by a guy named David Hawkins.

[00:24:48] He talks about the vibrations of different energies and emotions. And that in fact, yes, the vibration and emotion of anger can bring about a lot of change through its disruption, but it's also fundamentally and negatively disruptive to the individual. So in other words, like as a woman, that energy, I need to accept it and embrace it and nurture it in me and around me.

[00:25:13] But I also need to do whatever it is I need to do to change my perspective because I can't make progress without peace from within. A part of I think what people don't know what to do is, like, when a woman gets angry or feels crazy, she doesn't necessarily know how to express that. Or, if it gets expressed, other people are uncomfortable with it.

[00:25:38] And it's because on some level, at least according to my personal experience, once you get angry, like I'm all for sitting with somebody being angry, feeling crazy, screaming about injustice. What are we going to do now? What do you want to do with that? Cause otherwise it's just emotion. And then you left with A black cloud that's just been plopped, right?

[00:25:58] I don't know that I have a specific answer, but those stereotypes are there, I think, because people love labeling stuff that they don't understand. Yeah. My job is to understand it so that I don't have to label it, but that doesn't mean I won't label it. First, to try and understand what it is.

[00:26:15] So I'll see the same thing as anybody else. Oh, that crazy bitch. What's up with that? She's so angry. But I want to understand what's behind that so that I can understand what to do with it. And again, what to do with it doesn't mean let's figure out how to get rid of it because it's not okay to be angry.

[00:26:31] No, it's anger is an indication like every other emotion of something that's wrong. 

[00:26:36] Bob Gatty: Okay. Now there are some things that are wrong. Like one thing that's one thing that's wrong is that according to the Pew Research Center in 2022, women earned an average of 82 percent of what men earned for the same work.

[00:26:53] Now that's wrong. What needs in your opinion to happen to increase gender fairness when it comes to the workplace?

[00:27:02] Nicole Devlin: I think the problem with statistics always to me is who's being like, who's the audience? Who did they survey? I've read something and I wish I could cite it, but I can't right now about somebody evaluating that number and actually deciding that wasn't necessarily entirely accurate.

[00:27:19] And I'm not here to say it is or isn't, but let's just presume that it is. And I go in for an interview and it's advertised. Is that number what it is because women don't ask for the kind of pay that a man would ask for. Is it because women are not offered the same amount of money that a man is offered?

[00:27:39] And I guess that's the confusion that I ask myself. So which side do, which premise do I talk about if I want to answer that question? Because I don't feel like I actually can't imagine going into a professional situation and not asking for what I want and being content with that and feeling like it was on par with my peers, masculine and feminine.

[00:28:03] Okay. 

[00:28:05] Bob Gatty: All right. So it sounds to me like you question whether the issue of pay disparity is really real or not. Is that right? 

[00:28:15] Nicole Devlin: I do. I do. I do. Only because also part of what's happened over the past couple of years, I will say I'm jaded. Yeah, my experience over the past couple of years was I was hearing and seeing and reading a lot of things published and in the media that were not correlating my personal experience. 

[00:28:37] Bob Gatty: Like what? 

[00:28:39] Nicole Devlin: Virus statistics.

[00:28:41] How things were in New York versus California how things were playing out, what was going on? You know what I did in at the end of 20, I think it was 2020 or 2021. I said to myself, here I am, I'm in New York, I had a boyfriend in Northern California. I was living in Brooklyn. Brooklyn, New York, and Oakland, California are very similar, socioeconomically, demographically, politically, and I decided to take myself a trip after Christmas and drive back to California through the South, because I was like, I just want to know what's going on down there.

[00:29:13] I want to know what people think, politically, socially, I want to know how they're acting in terms of the virus, in terms of mandates, in terms of shutdowns, shut ins, stay at homes and I just, I, everything I experienced was not necessarily what was told to me or being told to me, both through people's a post on social media and in the national news media.

[00:29:38] And I just, it just made me feel like I don't know what is credible anymore. And I feel like also sometimes the massive messaging out there is very much one sided. And so it's hard to discern what's true until you actually talk to people about their personal experience. So I don't have any female friends that are like, I don't feel like I make enough money or the dude I work with is making more than me.

[00:30:03] Okay. 

[00:30:04] Bob Gatty: Okay. Yeah. Are there other issues though besides pay that where there are disparities between the way women are treated versus men in the workplace that you deal with in your work?

[00:30:19] Nicole Devlin: I think. Leadership. And this is a disparity that I think is a beautiful thing about women. The women I know who are in positions of they manage people. They have a, either a fiscal or people type responsibility in their workplace. They feel a very strong sense of responsibility.

[00:30:42] They do take care, at least again, I'm talking about the women that I'm close to, they do take care to understand what it means to be a leader by example. They do have more of a nurturing and even I'll use this word loosely maternal approach to their teams, their work. Their clients, their company.

[00:31:03] And I do think that is what business needs. More of is that confident sense of what it means to show up powerfully and lead. And I think women are inherently an emotionally intelligent woman is an inherently good leader. Because of that, those qualities, the ability to be creative and flow with people and meet people where they're at.

[00:31:25] And that's not to say that men don't do that or can't do that. Yeah. But yeah, it's more of the empowered, evolved, emotionally intelligent woman who's really understands her own emotions, understands her capacity for her, like to express her strengths and capacity to lead people through understanding tolerance, unconditional love and things like that.

[00:31:46] Bob Gatty: The other day I had a guest on my show who talked a lot about women's issues and disparities in the workplace and so on. And she raised the question about women's work. Now, do you feel like there still is an attitude that is prevalent that some jobs are just women's jobs and not men's jobs and vice versa?

[00:32:16] Nicole Devlin: I think that again, I don't know if I'd say the words women versus men, but I think that people gravitate towards certain jobs based on personality, and one could equate or correlate certain personality traits with the feminine versus the masculine. Like you take someone who like I would say there's probably more female teachers and nurses than there are male.

[00:32:38] Why? Because it's like you're caring for children, you're nurturing, you're curing, you're, but that doesn't mean a man can't be a good nurse or a good teacher. And I think that depending on what is more predominant as far as the energy within someone, be it more masculine, as we categorize masculine and feminine again, so this is all could change, right?

[00:32:58] But as we categorize masculine and feminine. People's expressions will lead them into the vocation that seems to fit. Like I would never be a nurse or a teacher because I'm just not that much of a caretaker like that. I think it's a different question. Also, when we talk about women's work, because I think I know who you were talking about and I watched her TED talk and it was like very much about like the home versus the workplace, how we're conditioned, nurtured, how we grow up to, take on roles in the home. And quite frankly, Bob, over the next couple of years, we're going to have to resolve some of these things about how men and women interrelate and parent in the home. Because I believe that the predominant message there is that women are like I have to get it done because he's not going to do it.

[00:33:43] Or I'll, I'm going to do it better. Or I'm the one who's going to do it right. Or, and then women are stressing themselves out, trying to be everything at home and then have a full time job. I just don't think as a society, we've really resolved what to do about that. So that's a unique situation that I'm not in.

[00:33:59] Cause I'm not a parent. I don't have children in home, in the home that I'm caring for. 

[00:34:04] Bob Gatty: Yeah but that brings up the question of work life balance. And, is it different for women as opposed to men and in trying to balance what needs to happen at home compared to when it needs to happen at work?

[00:34:21] Nicole Devlin: In short, I'd probably say, yes, again, especially if there's children at home. 

[00:34:25] Bob Gatty: Yeah. Why is that? Why? Why should it be different for women compared to men? 

[00:34:31] Nicole Devlin: It shouldn't. Okay. However, again, going back to the sense of responsibility, who is creating that, who created it before, and who's recreating it now?

[00:34:39] And those are really the bigger questions. Because as men and women learn to relate better and work better together and match each other for whatever then the men and women can share a different level of responsibility in the home, which will change the dynamic when they both go out to their respective professions.

[00:34:57] Okay. So it's like, why is it like that? And again, when we go back to responsibility, if you ask a woman you've got all these ideas about how it is. Express yourself, ask for what you need, find a way to have more balance for lack of a better word if you're dissatisfied, but I know a lot of women who are like, they'll just want to complain, but they don't want to give up the reins of control to a man in the home.

[00:35:23] Bob Gatty: Got it. Now your podcast focuses on power, right? Henry Kissinger once said that power is the great aphrodisiac. Do you agree with that? 

[00:35:36] Nicole Devlin: No. Only because I think that statement comes from someone who's in political power. And political power, yes, is an aphrodisiac. Political power, business power, the power of money, people who have those things at their disposal, a position in a company or ownership of a company, or someone who's got a lot of money, property, prestige, so to speak. What I would disagree with, and this again, going back to how men and women need to work are going to need to work out their own roles and their own sense of responsibility in the home, what my podcast is aiming to do is to veer people in the direction is like you need to work out your own sense of power within yourself. Okay. We all have an ego. As soon as I start to get power of any sort, and it may be that people like me. It may be a promotion at work. It may be a community position, a political position. Yeah, the ego is going to go to work like.

[00:36:36] Look at who you are. And it is an aphrodesiac because we all have an ego. But I think the people that I really admire are the people who have the power that comes from what I call servant leadership. Like they're still, they're powerful, and they're still humble. 

[00:36:53] Bob Gatty: Okay, now you say that we'll change dysfunctional government and business systems by strengthening personal power through spiritual connection and growing self awareness. Could you elaborate on that? What do you mean by that? 

[00:37:09] Nicole Devlin: It's what I said before. It's do you want to like, how do if I'm an individual, am I going to topple the government?

[00:37:14] No. However, Let's just say I'm working with a woman and I'm like, okay, so you want a better life. You have all these problems in your marriage and home, you have kids. I believe that I'm changing the future by helping another woman, especially one younger than me. If I can build her confidence, help her balance her life, figure out what she wants, how to go after it, maintain her own sense of responsibilities and integrity, her relationship with her husband is going to change.

[00:37:47] A relationship where their kids are going to change. And so my one little life is going to affect now five people, positively. That's if you want to go back to what I believe is the greatest change movement ever, which was the civil rights movement in the 60s. And what they did, which was so powerful, is they absolutely unequivocally stood for what they believed in.

[00:38:10] They went and sat in diners while people threw them on the floor, threw coffee in their face, put whipped cream in their hair, kicked them in the face, kicked them in the stomach, and every single time they got up and they got back in the chair. Because there was no fighting to do anymore around that topic.

[00:38:24] It was just going to be consistent standing. Same thing with the women's suffragette movement. Okay. Women, day after day after day, they stood at the gates to the White House. I don't know a lot of women that would do that, women that would do that today. It's easy to sit behind my keyboard and complain.

[00:38:40] Yeah, go out, winter, spring, summer, fall, and stand outside for what you believe in. Stand and sit where you rightfully belong. And sending the message that you can't keep this chair from me. I have just as much of a right to it as you do. That's powerful. That's powerful. So this idea of dysfunctional governments, let's tear it all down.

[00:39:01] Let's change it. Yeah, our democracy needs a little bit of work, right? It's time for change. But I do believe that the idea that each individual person attached to their purpose and attached to their sense of responsibility when they decide who they are and what they want to see in the world, and they get busy, it's already happening with people's podcasts, with the way people are leaving jobs and going off on their own and trying to find their purpose and do something differently.

[00:39:29] There's a powerful movement going on right now. 

[00:39:33] Bob Gatty: Okay. Now, what about the issue of women's reproductive rights Nicole, and the ongoing efforts by many politicians to restrict and even criminalize abortions. I know that doesn't play into your work, but I just thought I'd ask you that question because you're smart.

[00:39:51] Nicole Devlin: Oh, boy, Bob. 

[00:39:54] Bob Gatty: You don't want to do it. 

[00:39:55] Nicole Devlin: I, honestly, it's whether I answer it or not. Here's how I feel. I am. Is it the, the rescinding of the Roe v. Wade which is effectively what started a lot of this conversation.

[00:40:09] I know that people are upset by that and I don't want to take away anybody's feelings that they feel really strongly about, but part of, again, what I what happened with me a couple of years ago is that I want to understand every side and every feeling, people who are anti abortion versus people who are pro choice.

[00:40:29] I I don't I have my own feelings. I do think that if a woman Needs wants has to do that for whatever reason. It's very personal. It's also really highly spiritual and emotional. Should the government be involved in that? I don't think so. And and no, Roe v. Wade was the no, that's wrong.

[00:40:49] No, that is right. Okay. I was thinking like Brown versus Topeka Board of Education. That's the that was the one the civil rights decision, right? Okay. Yeah. Okay. It's so hard for me to feel something about that because I cannot be pleased, but I can also be okay. Is it possible that this is going to lead to something even better than what we had?

[00:41:12] So I don't feel the need and I don't have strong alignment with political feelings around the subject. And I'm more than open to people having conversations about things. But here's the other part of it. One thing I learned the past couple of years, there are some things people can't talk about and I can't talk to them about and I'm willing to have a conversation with anybody about anything, but not somebody who just wants to yell and scream about it and can't have open discourse.

[00:41:37] Bob Gatty: Yeah. You know what? I saw that in an episode on your podcast, you said you were naked. Why did you do that? And what was the result of that? 

[00:41:49] Nicole Devlin: Why did I do that? Yeah. Naked is naked. 

[00:41:53] Bob Gatty: You got a lot of clicks, huh? 

[00:41:55] Nicole Devlin: I don't know. But just to be clear, what Bob's talking about, it's on my website, but I was naked, but you couldn't tell.

[00:42:00] You can tell I was naked, but the funny thing is my hair is long. So if I put a tank top on, you might think I'm naked anyway, because it would cover the straps. podcast or episode, I was naked and I just had a moment of vulnerability and risk that aligned at the same time, Bob. And it would just, it just took me into this place.

[00:42:20] What if I actually got on and was naked? And by the way, I am not self conscious about my body. And if Facebook let me, I would have been totally naked, but you can't do that. I just feel like part of that was me wanting to express part of it was a little bit of taking a risk because I also believe that if you're in business, that's a lot of it.

[00:42:37] You just you think of the scariest thing you want to do and you just do it, but also just wanted to be raw. I just wanted to be in that moment and say a bunch of things. That I was feeling strongly about and somehow a little inkling of something got set off for me like, oh, I think I'll just be naked.

[00:42:57] Bob Gatty: It just cracked me up. Thank you. Yeah, I thought how creative is that? That's really good. I'll bet she's clicks and I bet you they're watching it all the way through too to see if she shows anything more.

[00:43:10] Oh, man. Nicole, it's been a pleasure. I really enjoyed talking to you about all of this stuff. And I want people to check out your Nth Power. What's it called? From the Nth Power. 

[00:43:22] Nicole Devlin: From the Nth Power podcast. 

[00:43:24] Bob Gatty: from the Nth Power podcast. So go there, check it out and and give her a lot of love.

[00:43:30] Okay. 

[00:43:31] Nicole Devlin: All right. Thank you, Bob.