Show Transcript

Make Polluters Pay

[00:00:00] There's a battle brewing in state legislatures and in Washington to force big oil to pay for their fair share of the damage that they're causing to our environment, as we all face the consequences of climate change. That's the topic today on our podcast, where we focus on the major issues that are facing America with just a little lean to the left. 

[00:00:24] Now, as we record this on the eve of the first presidential debate between President Biden and Donald Trump, he who has been convicted of I don't know how many felonies, our guest is Jamie Henn, founder and executive director of Fossil Free Media, which provides campaign and communication support for the movement to break free from fossil fuels.

[00:00:49] Fossil Free Media is home to campaigns like Creative Medias, which pressures PR and ad agencies to cut ties with fossil fuel companies and make polluters pay, which is building public support for holding big oil financially accountable for their impact on our climate. So Jamie, welcome to the lean to the left podcast.

[00:01:13] We got a hell of a lot to talk about today. 

[00:01:17] Thank you, Bob. It's great to be here. 

[00:01:19] Tell us a little bit about Fossil Free Media and what you guys do.

[00:01:22] Sure. Fossil Free Media has been around for about three years. And as you said, we work with groups across the climate environmental movement. From small grassroots groups who are fighting oil pipelines in their backyard to national environmental groups that your listeners will have heard of, like the Sierra club and Natural Resources Defense Council.

[00:01:41] And our job is to step in and bring to bear all the creative tools that we can from a communications perspective. So that includes. Making videos, putting on protests, sending out press releases, and then running these campaigns where we feel like there's a real opportunity to change the conversation around a particular topic.

[00:01:59] Oh, great. So you guys make videos, so why don't I just have you make my video? 

[00:02:06] There you go. 

[00:02:08] All right. About three years ago, Senator Chris Van Hollen of 

[00:02:12] Maryland, the Maryland Democrat, introduced a bill that would require the biggest polluters, like oil companies, to pay into a polluters pay climate fund to be used to finance efforts to tackle climate change.

[00:02:26] What ever happened to that bill, Jamie, do you know?

[00:02:29] It's a good question. As you said, Senator Van Hollen introduced this idea of a climate super fund that was based off of existing super fund law that as People know, makes chemical companies or other big polluters pay for the pollution that they're putting into our environment and the cleanup costs of that.

[00:02:45] So this bill was the same principle, which is if you make a mess, you've got to pay to clean it up. And in this case, the oil industry has been dumping carbon dioxide and methane into our atmosphere for decades. They knew all along the damage that this would cause. And so finally folks are beginning to move to try and say, You've got to pay your fair share for the damage being done.

[00:03:07] What happened with the bill is that Senator Van Hollen floated this idea when we were in the midst of negotiating the Inflation Reduction Act or Build Back Better at the time, and it did not make the final cut. I'll give you a few guesses why. They all begin with the words Joe Manchin. Senator Manchin wasn't too big a fan of asking polluters to pay their fair share, knowing that they were some of his biggest political contributors.

[00:03:31] We'll remember that Senator Manchin himself is a owner of a coal mining company in West Virginia. And the idea was popular and got a good amount of attention, but wasn't able to make it into the final draft. So fast forward, it's been on the table. Congress hasn't been amenable to passing a progressive policy of late, especially when the House switched over.

[00:03:52] But I think that after last summer, Of climate impacts and this summer, what we're already seeing with the cost that extreme heat is having across our country over the last few weeks and the terrible hurricane season that we're looking at later this summer and into the fall, this idea has come back to the fore of saying, Hey, if we're going to pay billions, trillions of dollars to deal with climate impacts, maybe polluters should have to pay their fair share.

[00:04:18] Do you really think that the weather that we're experiencing. Will really make much of a difference. These guys they just say, oh, it's just normal. Trump says it's just part of nature 

[00:04:31] I don't have too much faith that Trump will come around on this one, especially when he's going off to ask the oil companies for a billion dollars for his campaign. 

[00:04:40] Yeah, nothing like asking for bribes, right?

[00:04:42] Exactly But what I will say is that this is an interesting issue That cuts across some partisan lines for kind of two reasons. And we've done polling on this, I should say, where upwards of over 70 percent of Republicans support the idea of big oil paying some share, some part of the damages being done by climate.

[00:04:59] No kidding. I didn't know that. You mean Republican, regular Republican people? 

[00:05:03] Regular rank and file politicians. 

[00:05:06] Yeah. 

[00:05:06] Yeah. Maybe not the politicians who are 

[00:05:08] and probably not the mega people. 

[00:05:11] But I'll say two things, one is that there's a basic principle of fairness here and law and order, which is if you're knowingly causing damage, you should be held accountable.

[00:05:20] So that's core Republican value. And second, Republicans don't tend to like tax increases and let's face it. If you're. If you live in the Hudson Valley of New York, or if you live down in Louisiana on the coast, or in Florida, per se where, we know Governor DeSantis is you're paying all sorts of costs to deal with climate.

[00:05:41] People have lost their home insurance, cities and towns are having to pay to rebuild their bridges year after year. That money doesn't grow on trees. It comes out of existing funds that could go to be schools or health care, or it comes out of tax increases. And so I think there are a lot of Republicans who realize, look, even if I don't fully believe in global warming, something's happening.

[00:06:01] And these extreme weather events are getting more costly. And why not ask the richest corporations on the planet to pay in to help cover some of the damage that they're causing. So this one's kind of tricky, I think, for Republicans, which makes it a good political issue as well, because I think it actually puts the other side a bit on the defensive in terms of talking about who's going to be held accountable for the damage being done.

[00:06:23] Yeah, okay. You brought up the fact that Trump has asked the oil companies, the big oil companies, for a billion dollars for his re election campaign, promising that once he's in office, he'd tear up Biden's environmental regulations and prevent any new ones from being implemented.

[00:06:41] That's just, to me, it's just, Smacks of bribery. The guy is saying give me your money and I will do for you what it is you want And that's it 

[00:06:53] That's exactly right. Look, Trump promised those guys that he'd be a dictator on day one so that we could drill baby drill.

[00:07:00] He also promised that all of these investigations into big oil price fixing and price gouging would go away. This I think has been one of the greatest cons on the American people over the last two years. A lot of people blame Joe Biden for gas prices as if he's the one going and drilling it out of the ground and selling it on the market.

[00:07:18] When we have. Specific evidence now that US oil companies were colluding with OPEC to restrict supply to drive up prices to screw Americans at the pump, and that doesn't even just hurt us at the pump that drives up the cost of everything. Analysts have looked and experts have said that a full quarter of inflation.

[00:07:36] So what you're paying at the grocery store can be traced back directly to oil, which makes sense. The industry always brags about how oil is in everything. When you drive up the price of everything goes up. And here we have a major presidential candidate who basically says, These companies may have just robbed the American people blind, but if they give me a billion bucks, I'll let them go ahead and do more of it down the road.

[00:07:58] Meanwhile, I think the Biden administration has actually been doing more than they Take credit for in terms of having the federal trade commission and, the department of justice begin to really investigate these guys and try and push them on evidence of price fixing and hold them accountable.

[00:08:15] I wish that the president would be a bit more vocal about that because I think there's a strong record to run on, but. The American people need to know what's been going on and need that public education to happen from the bully pulpit as well as everywhere else. 

[00:08:29] That's really true.

[00:08:30] And especially given the fact that the Republicans are cooking up this thing called Project 25 which is a plan for the first 180 days of an incoming Republican administration. They hope. It includes a plan to dismantle federal agencies and public health standards, including environmental protections.

[00:08:52] And the Sierra Club, which you mentioned a minute ago, warns that this would be a death sentence for federal climate and environmental protection. What are your views about Project 25 and what they're trying to cook up? 

[00:09:05] Yeah if you like drinking water without toxic chemicals in it, or breathing air without carcinogens then you won't be a fan of this document. Project 2025 is the most radical right wing attack on our government across the board, but particularly since we're talking about the environment on the environment that we've ever seen.

[00:09:27] We used to have a Republican Party that, despite some disagreements about going after corporations, broadly speaking, was supportive of conservation efforts in the environment. Let's not forget that it was Richard Nixon that created the EPA. 

[00:09:41] Yeah, that's an amazing thing to recall, actually.

[00:09:44] Exactly. Now we've seen just a total reversal. A total corporate takeover by, the oil industry, by far right, anti government zealots. So Project 2025 would dismantle the very protections that I think Americans now take for granted. We forget that the skies above Los Angeles used to be filled with smog or that you couldn't rely on the drinking water in your tap being safe to drink.

[00:10:10] Those things probably there, not because the environment has magically gotten cleaner but because their protections put in place and corporations held responsible for dumping chemicals or whatever it may be. And so all of that is at stake, let alone the progress that we've been making on climate with the Inflation Reduction Act and the investments being made. Again, if you like the idea that you can get a tax credit to buy an electric vehicle or that you could save money doing energy efficiency that all goes away that all is struck. So the progress that we're making in this country in terms of saving people money on their electric bills, creating jobs in the clean energy economy, keeping our environment clean and protecting it for future generations. All of that is on the line this election.

[00:10:53] And we couldn't be facing a more kind of dire consequences if things go the wrong way. 

[00:10:57] Yeah, I think you're right. I was reading the other day I don't know if it was the Washington Post or Baltimore Sun, but one of the two, that soon you'll be able to swim in the Potomac River and in the Inner Harbor in Baltimore.

[00:11:14] Now those two bodies of water have been horribly polluted for decades. And the thought of putting your, even your foot in either one of them was a scary thing indeed. That's just a testament, I think, to the progress that's being made and if people want that to happen, vote for Trump and the Republicans, 

[00:11:34] yeah, I think that's right. I grew up in Boston. They're on the Charles River and we used to joke, you, you would go in with two arms and come out with three and but again, the Charles walk 

[00:11:43] Or you can walk on water, right? 

[00:11:44] Exactly. Exactly. We still sing a dirty water, Boston, you're my home at the Celtics games.

[00:11:49] That's really changed. We've made incredible progress and I think we have that opportunity on climate. Climate is such an existential. An enormous challenge, but we need to take heart from the idea that our country has been able to do extraordinary things to clean up our environment.

[00:12:03] And lo and behold, it's made our economy stronger and improved our quality of living across the board. We're just beginning to tip into that on climate, the money that was Unleashed by the inflation reduction act and bipartisan infrastructure plan. That money's just beginning to hit community. We're just beginning to see the electric vehicle charging stations and grants and all of that grants for farmers grants for forestry.

[00:12:32] Everything beginning to come into play. And so to pull the rug out from under that just as we're beginning to basically see a new chapter of our country where we can really make our air and water and climate safer, would be just such a tragedy. Yeah, it's needless to say, I think people listening to this know a lot is on the line.

[00:12:52] We can't just assume that progress will continue if Trump is elected, I think there's a lot of damage that could be done. The transition will continue, but it needs to continue at such a scale and speed that. This election could really be a disaster. 

[00:13:07] We don't have time to talk about all the things that President Biden has done with respect to the environment, but some of them include leading an LNG export pause, He's made bold environmental justice commitments that include EPA standards to cut greenhouse gas emissions, toxic air pollution, water pollution, and contamination from power plants.

[00:13:31] He's unleashed a boom in solar, wind, battery storage, and other clean energy technologies to support clean energy, even to the point that I bought, A new electric vehicle a couple of months ago, I wouldn't have done it if it wouldn't have been for what President Biden has done and what he's trying to do.

[00:13:50] And I got to say, my Mustang Mach E is a fabulous automobile. I just love it. I am concerned about the ability to, I live in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, and we don't have a lot of charging stations around here. I'm not sure why that is. It's a Republican area, so maybe that's why, but anyway we don't, but I charge it at home and it works just fine.

[00:14:14] Now Trump has promised to undo all of this saying that among other things that windmills kill birds. So what do you got to say about that? 

[00:14:26] Look, I think you brought up a number of good points. One is that. Look I say this as a activist, a climate activist who's, knows the stakes and we've got to fight really hard.

[00:14:36] And I've spent the last three years pushing the Biden administration. We've organized protests outside the White House we've put them on, I think some of the bad decisions they made to allow, the willow project to go forward in Alaska or the mountain Valley pipeline. But we've seen them begin to really turn a corner.

[00:14:52] You mentioned this. New pause on liquefied natural gas exports. That is really the new frontier for the industry. They want to be shipping US oil and gas around the world. Pollution be damned. Even though exporting, this is simple supply and demand exporting all that gas will simply drive up prices for consumers here at home.

[00:15:13] But, President Biden did the right thing on that. And that was a real reversal of previous policy. So I think we've got to give credit where credit is due. To your point about Trump and his outlandish views about wind turbines and also your efficient washing machine and, everything else that he likes to bring 

[00:15:29] toilets that do you have to flush three times?

[00:15:31] Yeah, exactly. It's always a little bit difficult. It's funny when Trump goes off the deep end, it, he's always going off the deep end, but one of his favorite riffs seems to be about home appliances. That's ironic for a man who I can't really imagine has ever done the dishes himself. But, look, this is all propaganda.

[00:15:47] This is all ridiculous. Just to get, just to take the wind turbines one. Household cats, I'm afraid to say, are the number one killer of birds in this country, and it is on an order of hundreds of times the amount that are ever killed windmills, so if you see someone walking around, telling you windmills kill birds recruit them for the anti cat campaign first, that's 

[00:16:07] the 

[00:16:07] place to start.

[00:16:07] Well, 

[00:16:08] just let me ask you this. Do you really think Trump gives a crap about birds? 

[00:16:13] No, of course not. That's the thing. I don't think any of these, There were look, you're there on the coast. There were proposals up. I live in the Northeast proposals to build offshore wind.

[00:16:23] Yeah. 

[00:16:24] Again, would have reduced prices for consumers. These wind turbines are way off in the ocean. You don't even see them from the shore, tons of jobs for workers bring billions of dollars to our port communities, like Portsmouth, New Hampshire, but down in Boston and they started getting stopped because.

[00:16:42] These oil industry front groups suddenly did this whole save the whales campaign where they made up this lie that whales were hitting wind turbines. There was no evidence of this. Of course, it was actually fishing boats and whatever else. If anything, a few more whales were dying because we cleaned up the ocean.

[00:17:00] So more whales were coming back. So inevitably, a few more were dying. But again, as if. The oil industry or Republican Party is suddenly a big save the whales fanatic. This is just a ploy to put disinformation on Facebook and try and convince enough people who are just glancing at it that something here is happening.

[00:17:20] That's something we've got to watch out for.

[00:17:22] There's a lot of disinformation going on because I said, I purchased an EV. I also, on my house, have added solar. I did this the last three or four months. So at the same time, of the car. I did the solar on my house.

[00:17:40] And I feel like the benefit for that is because of work that Biden's done. When I purchased my car, I got 7, 500 bucks back. from the feds, 7, 500 bucks from the feds to buy a, an EV car that's just beautiful. I just, I couldn't believe it. And but it actually happened.

[00:18:03] I got the check and I cashed it and I'm using it to pay the car off. Anyhow, I don't know why I got off onto that little tangent, but. I did. So besides the effort to make polluters pay that was in the Van Hollen bill there's stuff going on in the States, right? Vermont, New York, they're both working on, on, on legislation to make polluters pay, right?

[00:18:29] That's exactly right. And actually this spring at the end of April, Vermont made history. They became the first state in our country. And actually the first government. Around the world to pass legislation that would make big oil companies pay into a fund that will help the state deal with the impacts of climate change.

[00:18:47] And so Vermont right now is going to do an assessment where they're going to look at. They picked an established period starting in 1990 when oil companies very clearly knew the damage they were doing they're going to calculate the total amount of emissions that happened during that period, break it up by the biggest polluters.

[00:19:04] So companies like Exxon, Saudi Aramco, et cetera, and then basically send them a bill and have them pay into a fund just like super fund that would be administered by the state. And that money could then go to the government. To everything from repairing roads and bridges to installing air conditioning and schools so that kids aren't, at risk of extreme heat to strengthening our health care system so that it can respond when climate impacts happen setting up funds to help workers who are out of work because the ski industry is collapsing or whatever the case may be.

[00:19:39] And so it's a way again to say. This problem was created knowingly by these companies. Vermont is going to already pay a huge amount of money. Let's be clear, big oil companies will still be paying a fraction of the damage that they've done, but at the very least they're beginning to start paying into a fund.

[00:19:57] So Vermont passed it, which I think to everybody's surprise, little Vermont leading the revolution. The oil industry doesn't have much influence in Vermont, there's There's far more cows than oil rigs up there. And so now the question is, can we get a big state to follow Vermont's lead?

[00:20:13] So New York is next up. This bill in New York has passed both the Senate and the assembly. It had huge levels of support across the state. It had labor on board, environmental justice groups, progressive groups, environmental groups housing rights activists, healthcare workers And now it's on Governor Hochul's desk.

[00:20:30] And so the governor has to decide, whose side is she on? Does she want New Yorkers to keep having to pay the bill for these disasters? Or is she willing to hold Big Oil accountable? So there's going to be a real pressure on the governor. She has until the end of the year to make a decision, but we're hoping she moves quickly and signs this bill this summer.

[00:20:51] And he really gets this done in New York. After New York, as you mentioned, more states. So there's a bill in California, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota. I think, look, South Carolina should have one. Every state should have one. Every state's paying right now. And if your state, isn't thinking about how to hold the industry accountable, then the bill is going to be coming due and it's going to come out of our tax dollars instead.

[00:21:15] Governor Hochel, I'm just wondering, she's a Democrat. Why would there be any question about what she's going to do? 

[00:21:21] That is a great question. One would think she would jump all over this. Especially. And with all of the support among Democrats and again, as I said, across partisan lines in the state of New York a couple of reasons.

[00:21:33] One, I think she does have donors from the oil and gas industry. And one might worry that they're whispering in her ear about this. And second, we talked about disinformation on clean energy. The oil industry is trying the same thing on this. Their argument is If you ask us to pay, then those costs will just be passed along to consumers.

[00:21:53] Your prices will go up at the pump. That's not the way the market works. ExxonMobil can't call up gas stations in New York and say jack up the price a dollar because the governor dinged us with a fine. Oil's an international market. The way they do that is they construct supply, but then that drives up the price around the world.

[00:22:09] That's also illegal. Let's be clear. And so there really isn't a way for these companies to go after Vermont or New York or a couple of states just because the states are trying to hold them accountable. So again, This is about saving New Yorkers money. Right now, the state's already paying billions for climate.

[00:22:28] Again, that's money that could be going towards other things. And the goal here is to try and offset that cost by asking these polluters to pay their fair share. 

[00:22:38] Now with respect to electric vehicles including the investment in a national EV charging network, which was included in the soup in the t tell me out here, the bill, 

[00:22:51] the Inflation Reduction Act.

[00:22:52] Yeah. The Inflation Reduction Act. Awfully named. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:22:55] Yeah. What would happen to that if Trump would win the presidency? 

[00:23:00] Again, I think Trump is trying to take away all the incentives for electric vehicles. He sees them as, I forget the exact quote, but it's a war on the American auto industry.

[00:23:11] Needless to say. American auto companies have fully embraced this. Yeah. You mentioned your Ford. Ford has gone all in after EVs because they know that's where the future is, and that's how we stay competitive with China, with other countries who are really investing in this.

[00:23:25] And again, it's important to note. Trump's actions on this, he'll do everything he can to stop electric vehicles. That hurts consumers, takes away your tax credits, keeps you addicted to expensive gas, happens to be his political donors. It hurts Detroit because the auto companies have invested a ton of money in moving to electric vehicles.

[00:23:44] And if the government starts pushing back against that, it just costs them money and slows it down for them. And it hurts workers who, again Are seeing new factories, new jobs, new industries, new automobile companies like Rivian or others starting up. Rivian's stock just jumped hugely because VW invested a bunch of money into them.

[00:24:02] Again that all is on the line. And so again, I think that it's this weird we know why, right? Trump only cares about his kind of donors and himself. But it's distorting the entire economy. Again, we used to talk about jobs versus the environment. Now all the good new jobs are in the environment.

[00:24:20] It's in clean tech, it's in clean energy. And so the attacks on that just hurt the overall economy and hurt our prospects of creating more opportunities for people. 

[00:24:30] Yeah, there are a lot of very well paying jobs available as a result of the investment in offshore wind, as a matter of fact.

[00:24:41] I had the privilege of working for Congressman Jim Florio back when he was in the House. I was his chief of staff for two years, during the time that he was working on the Superfund legislation and I was very proud of that. And Congressman Florio was a co host of my podcast for a little while before he passed away not long ago.

[00:25:07] But he was very high on the offshore wind activities that were taking place off the coast of New Jersey. And I, I just hope that can continue for sure. Now have you got any closing thoughts? You got anything else you want to add about all of this? 

[00:25:25] No, I think this has been great.

[00:25:26] Look, I just say I've had the privilege of kicking around the climate movement for the last 15 years, working on a lot of different efforts from the Keystone XL pipeline to clean energy to fossil fuel divestment. I think that this push to make polluters pay with the lawsuits that are underway, suing big oil with these super fund bills that are This provides one of our Best avenues to finally breaking the power of this industry that's been holding back political progress and warping our democracy as we're seeing with Trump.

[00:26:02] And we've just gotten this campaign up and running. It's just beginning. People can get in at the ground floor. We just launched a new website, make polluters pay. net that people check out. And we'd love for people to get involved because again, Every city and state across this country is feeling the impacts right now, and so there's nothing stopping your city council or your district attorney or attorney general from going up and holding Big Oil accountable.

[00:26:27] So we're trying to build that movement around the country. It's exciting to see it take off. It's exciting to already have a big win with a little Vermont, but it won't stop there if we all get organized around it. 

[00:26:37] How can people get involved with what you guys are doing? 

[00:26:41] So make polluters pay. net is the great place to sign up.

[00:26:44] There's a big sign up form right there and we'll keep you involved and plug you in. And then, that's the best place to start. Then there's lots of other information online and social media. And if you start Googling around you'll find different pieces of it, but we would love for people to get involved.

[00:26:58] And the final thing I'd say is just. Keep talking to your neighbors. I deal in communications and the best social science says that lots of people actually care about climate and clean energy, but they need to hear about it. They need to know that Bob saving money on his electric vehicle.

[00:27:15] And your neighbors are getting solar and that people want to see these benefits continue. So the more that we can talk about it. Again, you don't even have to mention climate change or global warming. Just talking to people about the extreme weather or the heat that's happening and the money you're saving with clean energy, that stuff begins to have an impact and those conversations really matter.

[00:27:34] All right. Thank you, Jamie. I really appreciate you being with us on the Lean to the Left podcast. It's a very important topic and I thought you did a great job and I appreciate it very much. Thank you. You bet. Thanks for having me.