Douglas Giles-Power & the Bigger Lie - 10:14:22, 1.59 PM

Show Transcript

Welcome Douglas to the

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[bob_gatty]: lean to the left podcast appreciate your

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[douglas_giles]: thanks

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[bob_gatty]: being with us

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[douglas_giles]: thank you for having me as an

honor to be with you

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[bob_gatty]: you know politics is a debate over

how government and society should be structured and

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[bob_gatty]: how social institutions should function to what

ends political conflict over these issues is often

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[bob_gatty]: described in terms of the left versus

the right so what do you think what

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[bob_gatty]: do they mean

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[douglas_giles]: broadly speaking i

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: think that all political conflicts all political

dialogue

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: really ultimately comes down to an issue

of power who has power how much pow

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[douglas_giles]: or to various people have

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: and my basic theory

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: and explanation of political

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: realities in society in general is to

say that the struggle

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: is about the centration versus the circulation

of power who has

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: power and how much is that power

distributed

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[bob_gatty]: a

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[douglas_giles]: and circulated throughout society and so the

very basic

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[bob_gatty]: do

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[douglas_giles]: version of what i'm saying is to

say that right wing if you have a

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[douglas_giles]: high if you have

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: a high concentration of power within a

society then that's a right wing society if

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[douglas_giles]: you have a political institution or a

social institution that concentrates power in a lect

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[douglas_giles]: a few people that's the definition of

what that it is a right wing structure

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[douglas_giles]: the left is opposite of that the

left is saying that we should have a

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[douglas_giles]: broader circulation

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: power throughout society and if you do

have a society

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: in which power is not concentrated in

a few

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: but is widely circulated

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: among people then you have a society

that is more left wing left est

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[bob_gatty]: okay solely in that context then in

the united states would you say then that

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[bob_gatty]: that the republicans are of the right

wing and the democrats are of the left

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[bob_gatty]: wing right

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[douglas_giles]: i would i would say that in

general general in terms of looking at each

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[douglas_giles]: other yes

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: the democrats are more to the left

and the republicans and more to the

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[bob_gatty]: m

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[douglas_giles]: right

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[bob_gatty]: okay so and then that would mean

to take that further that the republicans are

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[bob_gatty]: looking to concentrate power in fewer people

is that what you're saying

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[douglas_giles]: yes and that goes way back it's

part of the fabric of the republican party

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[douglas_giles]: and has

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[bob_gatty]: m

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[douglas_giles]: been since the harding administration

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[bob_gatty]: m

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[douglas_giles]: for goodness sakes

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[bob_gatty]: hm

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[douglas_giles]: where you

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[bob_gatty]: i

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[douglas_giles]: have

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: power concentrated in

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: an elite business class

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: and i'm not i'm not a marxist

at all

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[bob_gatty]: yea

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[douglas_giles]: so i'm not going with that critique

but i'm just using this as an example

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[douglas_giles]: that

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: the republican party

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: has for many decades now for basically

entry concentrated on the idea that business first

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[douglas_giles]: what's good

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: for gam is what's good for america

is a very old

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: idea

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[bob_gatty]: hm

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[douglas_giles]: and if the business people have the

most power within society then that's

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: good for society at large

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[bob_gatty]: m

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[douglas_giles]: you have physical conservatism you have

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: business conservatism you have social conservatism but

all of those

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: which dovetail in

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[bob_gatty]: real

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[douglas_giles]: the public republican party in various ways

are all manifestations of this idea that power

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[douglas_giles]: should be concentrated fewer people than in

the broader society at large

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[bob_gatty]: do you believe that don trump attempted

to take that about as far as he

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[bob_gatty]: could

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[douglas_giles]: yea

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[bob_gatty]: in terms of a concentrating power

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[douglas_giles]: well i i don't ever see trump

as an idea logue i ust think he's

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[douglas_giles]: a selfish person and

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[bob_gatty]: uh

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[douglas_giles]: he

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[bob_gatty]: huh

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[douglas_giles]: he is right wing in and of

himself in that he sees well and the

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[douglas_giles]: concentration of wealth

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: as a net good and therefore he

is interested

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: only in aspects of politic society an

x that are concentrating power

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[bob_gatty]: a

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[douglas_giles]: within the hands of rich business men

and that's an old that's

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[bob_gatty]: ah

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[douglas_giles]: an old idea that goes way way

back long before the republican party long before

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[douglas_giles]: the united states existed and so yeah

i mean trump is a right wing or

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[douglas_giles]: i don't think there's any any question

about that

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[bob_gatty]: sure

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[douglas_giles]: as to how much he's trying to

extend that power well like i say i

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[douglas_giles]: think he's just coming from the central

social political dualism that is inherent in conservatism

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[douglas_giles]: of there should be a small set

of people that are the halves and everyone

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[douglas_giles]: else is a have not that that's

the good and proper way to run a

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[douglas_giles]: society

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[bob_gatty]: i put it in simple terms you

know there some there are some folks who

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[bob_gatty]: really believe that trump was and probably

still is trying to in effect become potent

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[bob_gatty]: in the united states

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[douglas_giles]: hm

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[bob_gatty]: do you believe that

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[douglas_giles]: i think they're very similar in a

lot of respects

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[bob_gatty]: a yeah

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[douglas_giles]: i'm not going to cast a judgment

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: on does this trump want to be

potent does want to be a military dictator

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[bob_gatty]: yeah hm

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[douglas_giles]: putten is but clearly there's a lot

of parallels

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: there because the when we start thinking

of left verses write in terms of this

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[douglas_giles]: discussion about power the concentration

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: or circulation of power

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[bob_gatty]: m hm

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[douglas_giles]: then we start to see how all

right wing governments throughout

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: history or right wing persons throughout history

are

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[bob_gatty]: o

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[douglas_giles]: basically the same this is central drive

to concentrate power we see it in potan

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[douglas_giles]: we see it in staland we saw

it in hitler

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: we we see it in trump we

see it in the tories the k where

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[douglas_giles]: i lived for a few years we

see in balcinaro in brazil everywhere you look

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[douglas_giles]: totalitarian governments

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[bob_gatty]: yes

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[douglas_giles]: are all about by definition concentrating power

within the hands

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[bob_gatty]: a

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[douglas_giles]: of a very small or even just

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[bob_gatty]: m

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[douglas_giles]: one person and i would say that

trump and puttin are identical in that desire

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[bob_gatty]: yeah that's really incredible for you to

be mentioning his name among those other dictators

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[bob_gatty]: and it's just incredible to me that

other p i don't see that other people

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[bob_gatty]: who are to the right of me

for example don't see that now how does

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[bob_gatty]: your book help us better understand polly

cal and social conflict douglas

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[douglas_giles]: well what i do in the book

is first off take on the standard conceptions

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[douglas_giles]: of left and right which tend to

be that of the left wing is all

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[bob_gatty]: ah

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[douglas_giles]: about big vernment and intrusion into the

private lives of citizens and the right wing

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[douglas_giles]: is about small government

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[bob_gatty]: hm

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[douglas_giles]: and if we look at that at

all which of course very few people do

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[douglas_giles]: we can see that that really doesn't

work and one of the examples that i

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[douglas_giles]: use on that is the issue of

abortion and the right wing is actually in

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[douglas_giles]: favor of restricting abortions and the left

wing are in favor of laws that protect

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[bob_gatty]: yes

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[douglas_giles]: abortion rights for

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[bob_gatty]: right

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[douglas_giles]: women

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: and this shows that no not about

small government versus big government in terms of

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[douglas_giles]: that that being the left and right

split it's about power and if you look

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[douglas_giles]: at what the right wing is trying

to do is trying to say that all

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[douglas_giles]: of the power over the decision as

to whether not to have an abortion or

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[douglas_giles]: to have a child

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: rests in the power of the state

whereas the pro choice position says

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[bob_gatty]: ye

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[douglas_giles]: no the power should be broadly circulated

to every single woman who is actually facing

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[douglas_giles]: the question and so when we start

to look at how this manifest within society

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[douglas_giles]: and that's what my book sets up

at the beginning

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[bob_gatty]: hm

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[douglas_giles]: we start to be able to have

a way of looking at any particular political

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[douglas_giles]: conflict any

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: particular issue on which there is a

political debate

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: and see what the left and

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[bob_gatty]: m

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[douglas_giles]: right would be and

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[bob_gatty]: hm

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[douglas_giles]: this is independent of any more

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: judgments but when we met when we

look at people's intentions about what are they

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[douglas_giles]: trying to do what

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: are they trying to accomplish with the

positions that they have we can see that

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[douglas_giles]: this is how the left and right

works and what that does for us is

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[douglas_giles]: it allows us to

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: understand the real issues involved

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

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[douglas_giles]: that is beneath all the rhetoric

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[bob_gatty]: i

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[douglas_giles]: and beneath all of the oppositional buyin

are politics that goes on far too often

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[douglas_giles]: throughout the world especially the nited states

you go back to the nineties when i

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[douglas_giles]: first kind of became politically aware and

active in my life it's been complete as

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[douglas_giles]: democrats republicans and the

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[bob_gatty]: oh

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[douglas_giles]: vast majority all political discussion now

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[bob_gatty]: yeah

234

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[douglas_giles]: is the evil democrats are the evil

235

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[bob_gatty]: ye

236

00:10:25,145 --> 00:10:25,826

[douglas_giles]: republicans

237

00:10:26,353 --> 00:10:26,373

[bob_gatty]: h

238

00:10:26,387 --> 00:10:26,928

[douglas_giles]: and we've lost

239

00:10:27,279 --> 00:10:27,300

[bob_gatty]: m

240

00:10:27,549 --> 00:10:27,809

[douglas_giles]: touch

241

00:10:28,051 --> 00:10:28,192

[bob_gatty]: as

242

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[douglas_giles]: with what are these issues really about

what is really going on and you can

243

00:10:32,216 --> 00:10:35,021

[douglas_giles]: say okay yeah the democrats are more

to the left and the republican are more

244

00:10:35,101 --> 00:10:35,542

[douglas_giles]: to the right

245

00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:36,780

[bob_gatty]: yeah

246

00:10:35,983 --> 00:10:38,667

[douglas_giles]: but even that is insufficient we had

we should

247

00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:38,803

[bob_gatty]: oh

248

00:10:38,767 --> 00:10:43,215

[douglas_giles]: look at particular issues what what does

conservative

249

00:10:42,540 --> 00:10:43,309

[bob_gatty]: yea

250

00:10:43,295 --> 00:10:44,998

[douglas_giles]: really mean what does liberal

251

00:10:44,670 --> 00:10:44,910

[bob_gatty]: oh

252

00:10:45,078 --> 00:10:50,707

[douglas_giles]: really mean when we get into talking

about the actual philosophies and ideologies behind these

253

00:10:50,787 --> 00:10:55,435

[douglas_giles]: positions and these ways of looking at

the world i want to stress that these

254

00:10:55,495 --> 00:10:59,402

[douglas_giles]: are different ways of looking at the

world and looking at our fellow human beings

255

00:11:00,183 --> 00:11:05,674

[douglas_giles]: this really helps us to put into

concrete terms

256

00:11:05,482 --> 00:11:05,502

[bob_gatty]: i

257

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[douglas_giles]: what our

258

00:11:06,750 --> 00:11:07,860

[bob_gatty]: oh

259

00:11:07,060 --> 00:11:08,546

[douglas_giles]: political dialogue is about

260

00:11:10,134 --> 00:11:17,375

[bob_gatty]: well if if you were to define

conservatives and define liberals how would

261

00:11:17,409 --> 00:11:17,591

[douglas_giles]: yeah

262

00:11:17,415 --> 00:11:17,957

[bob_gatty]: you do that

263

00:11:18,519 --> 00:11:23,614

[douglas_giles]: oh conservatism is concentration of power into

the

264

00:11:23,581 --> 00:11:23,601

[bob_gatty]: a

265

00:11:23,654 --> 00:11:24,255

[douglas_giles]: hands of a few

266

00:11:24,663 --> 00:11:24,925

[bob_gatty]: okay

267

00:11:25,116 --> 00:11:30,144

[douglas_giles]: and it does not matter if that

concentration occurs within government or business or religion

268

00:11:30,570 --> 00:11:30,750

[bob_gatty]: oh

269

00:11:30,605 --> 00:11:36,533

[douglas_giles]: or any other social structure it is

the structure of power concentration and of itself

270

00:11:37,381 --> 00:11:37,401

[bob_gatty]: a

271

00:11:37,855 --> 00:11:45,228

[douglas_giles]: liberalism would be the drive to and

desire to have a more a society that

272

00:11:45,388 --> 00:11:52,364

[douglas_giles]: is more freedom ossessed by more people

more rights possessed by more people where you

273

00:11:52,484 --> 00:11:54,767

[douglas_giles]: don't have this divisions of haves and

have nots

274

00:11:56,140 --> 00:11:56,581

[bob_gatty]: so con

275

00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:56,792

[douglas_giles]: and

276

00:11:57,162 --> 00:11:58,384

[bob_gatty]: i'm sorry please

277

00:11:58,250 --> 00:11:58,934

[douglas_giles]: no go ahead go ahead

278

00:11:59,346 --> 00:12:08,770

[bob_gatty]: so contrary to what republicans would have

us believe they are the party of power

279

00:12:09,511 --> 00:12:10,352

[bob_gatty]: they are the party

280

00:12:10,230 --> 00:12:10,251

[douglas_giles]: s

281

00:12:10,612 --> 00:12:16,739

[bob_gatty]: of big government not small government they

are the party of powerful government correct

282

00:12:17,779 --> 00:12:19,422

[douglas_giles]: yes and i stress

283

00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:19,472

[bob_gatty]: ye

284

00:12:19,883 --> 00:12:23,108

[douglas_giles]: here again that it could be government

but it doesn't have to be government

285

00:12:23,482 --> 00:12:23,643

[bob_gatty]: yeah

286

00:12:24,090 --> 00:12:31,101

[douglas_giles]: if you have a rule of a

society where all the power whether it be

287

00:12:31,242 --> 00:12:33,626

[douglas_giles]: political economic or social is

288

00:12:33,690 --> 00:12:34,073

[bob_gatty]: oh

289

00:12:33,706 --> 00:12:35,569

[douglas_giles]: in the hands of a few corporations

290

00:12:35,070 --> 00:12:35,211

[bob_gatty]: ye

291

00:12:36,290 --> 00:12:41,541

[douglas_giles]: or a few business people then that's

a right wing power star sure

292

00:12:42,068 --> 00:12:42,600

[bob_gatty]: hm

293

00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,606

[douglas_giles]: and you look at the united states

but before teddy rosevelt

294

00:12:46,141 --> 00:12:46,303

[bob_gatty]: yeah

295

00:12:46,666 --> 00:12:51,915

[douglas_giles]: in the battles to bust the trust

in the late eighteen hundreds that's when you

296

00:12:52,015 --> 00:12:54,439

[douglas_giles]: had the steel trust and you had

the copper tray so

297

00:12:54,401 --> 00:12:54,584

[bob_gatty]: yeah

298

00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,512

[douglas_giles]: you have the railroad trust and on

and on where you had a very very

299

00:12:58,633 --> 00:13:04,430

[douglas_giles]: small number of people who completely controlled

the united states economy and

300

00:13:04,595 --> 00:13:05,662

[bob_gatty]: i oh

301

00:13:06,113 --> 00:13:09,779

[douglas_giles]: historians and political scientists and argue about

how much of that

302

00:13:09,735 --> 00:13:09,835

[bob_gatty]: it

303

00:13:09,859 --> 00:13:11,442

[douglas_giles]: was political power how much

304

00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:11,794

[bob_gatty]: yeah

305

00:13:11,502 --> 00:13:12,583

[douglas_giles]: was economic power

306

00:13:12,901 --> 00:13:13,123

[bob_gatty]: right

307

00:13:12,944 --> 00:13:16,414

[douglas_giles]: but it really doesn't matter if you

have people in control

308

00:13:16,110 --> 00:13:17,281

[bob_gatty]: oh

309

00:13:17,499 --> 00:13:18,846

[douglas_giles]: that's a totalitarian structure

310

00:13:19,263 --> 00:13:19,447

[bob_gatty]: right

311

00:13:19,809 --> 00:13:27,963

[douglas_giles]: and so that's what the republican party

today which very strongly favors business interests corporate

312

00:13:28,023 --> 00:13:28,484

[douglas_giles]: interests

313

00:13:28,651 --> 00:13:28,835

[bob_gatty]: right

314

00:13:29,065 --> 00:13:29,686

[douglas_giles]: they want to

315

00:13:30,030 --> 00:13:30,456

[bob_gatty]: oh

316

00:13:30,086 --> 00:13:37,357

[douglas_giles]: lower their taxes remove worker protections environmental

protections basically do everything so that government

317

00:13:37,215 --> 00:13:37,379

[bob_gatty]: yeah

318

00:13:37,477 --> 00:13:42,062

[douglas_giles]: functions for the benefit of business owners

and shareholders

319

00:13:41,742 --> 00:13:41,924

[bob_gatty]: yes

320

00:13:42,423 --> 00:13:43,184

[douglas_giles]: of corporations

321

00:13:43,524 --> 00:13:43,707

[bob_gatty]: right

322

00:13:43,905 --> 00:13:44,706

[douglas_giles]: that's a drive

323

00:13:44,730 --> 00:13:45,540

[bob_gatty]: oh

324

00:13:44,746 --> 00:13:51,241

[douglas_giles]: towards the concentration of power it is

saying that yes the republicans want right wing

325

00:13:51,301 --> 00:13:52,446

[douglas_giles]: society it's about power

326

00:13:55,231 --> 00:13:59,275

[bob_gatty]: and they would have you just believe

the big the opposite so actually

327

00:13:59,139 --> 00:13:59,261

[douglas_giles]: right

328

00:13:59,495 --> 00:14:03,179

[bob_gatty]: talk about a big lie and there's

the bigger biggest lie of all i think

329

00:14:04,319 --> 00:14:09,047

[douglas_giles]: i think so and i think that

when republicans do their revision is history about

330

00:14:09,107 --> 00:14:09,528

[douglas_giles]: things and this

331

00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,087

[bob_gatty]: uh

332

00:14:09,568 --> 00:14:12,172

[douglas_giles]: is true for again for conservatives all

over the place

333

00:14:12,331 --> 00:14:12,495

[bob_gatty]: yeah

334

00:14:12,834 --> 00:14:15,278

[douglas_giles]: when i live in the u k

i now live in the check republic and

335

00:14:15,578 --> 00:14:17,421

[douglas_giles]: the right ing parties here they're essentially

336

00:14:17,115 --> 00:14:17,197

[bob_gatty]: ah

337

00:14:17,461 --> 00:14:17,842

[douglas_giles]: the same

338

00:14:18,347 --> 00:14:18,840

[bob_gatty]: hm

339

00:14:18,723 --> 00:14:22,450

[douglas_giles]: and when they go back and look

at history and they and they say oh

340

00:14:22,590 --> 00:14:23,511

[douglas_giles]: well all

341

00:14:23,535 --> 00:14:23,638

[bob_gatty]: ah

342

00:14:23,611 --> 00:14:24,733

[douglas_giles]: of these efforts to

343

00:14:24,924 --> 00:14:24,945

[bob_gatty]: a

344

00:14:25,615 --> 00:14:25,955

[douglas_giles]: extend

345

00:14:25,632 --> 00:14:25,713

[bob_gatty]: oh

346

00:14:26,036 --> 00:14:27,819

[douglas_giles]: voting rights or extend immigration

347

00:14:27,715 --> 00:14:27,859

[bob_gatty]: oh

348

00:14:28,019 --> 00:14:32,546

[douglas_giles]: rights or all of these things that

that's government overreach

349

00:14:32,961 --> 00:14:33,163

[bob_gatty]: right

350

00:14:33,187 --> 00:14:34,169

[douglas_giles]: well it's not

351

00:14:34,170 --> 00:14:34,412

[bob_gatty]: yeah

352

00:14:34,229 --> 00:14:36,673

[douglas_giles]: government overreach to say hey

353

00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:37,328

[bob_gatty]: oh

354

00:14:37,555 --> 00:14:38,837

[douglas_giles]: african americans should have

355

00:14:38,979 --> 00:14:39,000

[bob_gatty]: m

356

00:14:39,358 --> 00:14:45,308

[douglas_giles]: equal rights and privileges within the country

that immigrants to the u k should have

357

00:14:45,468 --> 00:14:48,553

[douglas_giles]: equal rights and you know if you

if you obey the law and pay

358

00:14:48,601 --> 00:14:48,764

[bob_gatty]: okay

359

00:14:48,613 --> 00:14:52,399

[douglas_giles]: your taxes why shouldn't you have as

much power as anybody else not be about

360

00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:55,845

[douglas_giles]: race it should not be about ethnicity

should not be about religion that's what the

361

00:14:55,945 --> 00:15:02,096

[douglas_giles]: left to say but yes the big

lie is for right wing parties throughout the

362

00:15:02,156 --> 00:15:11,072

[douglas_giles]: world to say that these ideas of

more concentrate more circulation of power evil

363

00:15:12,088 --> 00:15:12,600

[bob_gatty]: hm

364

00:15:12,989 --> 00:15:17,511

[douglas_giles]: and i think it comes down to

the again that notion that there should be

365

00:15:18,132 --> 00:15:18,152

[douglas_giles]: a

366

00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:18,393

[bob_gatty]: yeah

367

00:15:18,232 --> 00:15:22,300

[douglas_giles]: concentration of power of the halves and

the have nots and splits along many many

368

00:15:22,213 --> 00:15:22,295

[bob_gatty]: ah

369

00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,648

[douglas_giles]: different fractures depending upon time and place

but that's the fundamental issue

370

00:15:29,011 --> 00:15:32,561

[bob_gatty]: you have a chapter titled the fake

political dimension

371

00:15:33,465 --> 00:15:33,939

[douglas_giles]: hm

372

00:15:33,884 --> 00:15:35,107

[bob_gatty]: douglas what's that about

373

00:15:36,180 --> 00:15:39,909

[douglas_giles]: ah well it's this is kind of

my own little bug bear here

374

00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:40,031

[bob_gatty]: uh

375

00:15:40,671 --> 00:15:44,841

[douglas_giles]: but but as as a philosophy professor

and someone who

376

00:15:45,009 --> 00:15:45,069

[bob_gatty]: ah

377

00:15:45,041 --> 00:15:46,143

[douglas_giles]: who immerses myself

378

00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:46,510

[bob_gatty]: yeah

379

00:15:46,243 --> 00:15:52,754

[douglas_giles]: within political philosophy one of the things

that it always has really irritated me is

380

00:15:52,755 --> 00:15:52,775

[bob_gatty]: a

381

00:15:52,874 --> 00:15:55,558

[douglas_giles]: the libertarian claim that

382

00:15:55,339 --> 00:15:55,582

[bob_gatty]: okay

383

00:15:56,261 --> 00:15:56,361

[douglas_giles]: we

384

00:15:56,331 --> 00:15:56,473

[bob_gatty]: yeah

385

00:15:56,442 --> 00:16:01,613

[douglas_giles]: can look at the political spectrum in

a different way and it's like well yes

386

00:16:01,674 --> 00:16:02,074

[douglas_giles]: we should

387

00:16:02,423 --> 00:16:02,628

[bob_gatty]: yeah

388

00:16:02,956 --> 00:16:06,321

[douglas_giles]: there are a lot of flaws and

confusions in the traditional way of looking at

389

00:16:06,562 --> 00:16:13,393

[douglas_giles]: the political spectrum but the libertarian party

and the founder of that party years ago

390

00:16:13,573 --> 00:16:14,395

[douglas_giles]: david nolan

391

00:16:14,250 --> 00:16:14,452

[bob_gatty]: oh

392

00:16:15,276 --> 00:16:17,099

[douglas_giles]: invented this

393

00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:17,335

[bob_gatty]: oh

394

00:16:17,740 --> 00:16:22,829

[douglas_giles]: scheme of saying oh there's two access

and one access is about personally free him

395

00:16:22,929 --> 00:16:28,495

[douglas_giles]: and the other access is about economic

freedom and he then twists that into saying

396

00:16:28,523 --> 00:16:28,665

[bob_gatty]: yeah

397

00:16:28,595 --> 00:16:35,394

[douglas_giles]: that well economic freedom is about big

government versus individual freedom to do what you

398

00:16:35,434 --> 00:16:36,256

[douglas_giles]: want economically

399

00:16:36,292 --> 00:16:36,492

[bob_gatty]: right

400

00:16:37,599 --> 00:16:39,782

[douglas_giles]: and as i explained in the book

i go

401

00:16:39,801 --> 00:16:40,560

[bob_gatty]: yeah

402

00:16:39,842 --> 00:16:41,105

[douglas_giles]: into much detail on this

403

00:16:41,351 --> 00:16:41,533

[bob_gatty]: sure

404

00:16:41,906 --> 00:16:44,270

[douglas_giles]: i didn't i didn't mean it to

turn into a whole chapter but it did

405

00:16:44,350 --> 00:16:44,570

[douglas_giles]: because

406

00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,010

[bob_gatty]: yeah

407

00:16:44,771 --> 00:16:47,415

[douglas_giles]: it is really worth explaining and how

much

408

00:16:47,291 --> 00:16:47,311

[bob_gatty]: a

409

00:16:47,515 --> 00:16:48,637

[douglas_giles]: it illuminates

410

00:16:48,780 --> 00:16:48,943

[bob_gatty]: yeah

411

00:16:48,938 --> 00:16:53,649

[douglas_giles]: the central issues here and he is

he's trying

412

00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:53,880

[bob_gatty]: oh

413

00:16:53,689 --> 00:16:57,919

[douglas_giles]: to pretend that these are two different

things two different

414

00:16:57,870 --> 00:16:58,131

[bob_gatty]: oh

415

00:16:58,020 --> 00:17:00,363

[douglas_giles]: accees about two different social phenomena

416

00:17:00,570 --> 00:17:00,870

[bob_gatty]: oh

417

00:17:00,624 --> 00:17:06,814

[douglas_giles]: and i say in response no power

is power you can't split personal economic freedom

418

00:17:07,275 --> 00:17:07,656

[douglas_giles]: because

419

00:17:07,470 --> 00:17:07,773

[bob_gatty]: yeah

420

00:17:07,896 --> 00:17:13,592

[douglas_giles]: when you have what it's hard power

or soft power if you have economic power

421

00:17:13,391 --> 00:17:13,593

[bob_gatty]: yes

422

00:17:13,793 --> 00:17:18,685

[douglas_giles]: you have social power you can't separate

those two if you are completely cut out

423

00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:18,892

[bob_gatty]: yeah

424

00:17:18,805 --> 00:17:21,312

[douglas_giles]: of economic power you don't have social

425

00:17:21,090 --> 00:17:21,272

[bob_gatty]: oh

426

00:17:21,392 --> 00:17:24,324

[douglas_giles]: power you don't have social capital as

sociologists

427

00:17:24,090 --> 00:17:24,110

[bob_gatty]: m

428

00:17:24,364 --> 00:17:27,412

[douglas_giles]: would say today so it's this artificial

429

00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:29,610

[bob_gatty]: oh

430

00:17:27,492 --> 00:17:32,620

[douglas_giles]: distinction to try to turn the state

this this bogie man of the state into

431

00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:33,390

[bob_gatty]: yeah

432

00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:35,605

[douglas_giles]: this two headed monster that is trying

to take away not just one freedom but

433

00:17:36,106 --> 00:17:41,277

[douglas_giles]: two different types of freedom from you

and it's so completely disingenuous it's

434

00:17:41,229 --> 00:17:41,250

[bob_gatty]: m

435

00:17:41,417 --> 00:17:43,402

[douglas_giles]: so utterly intellectually dishonest

436

00:17:42,853 --> 00:17:42,913

[bob_gatty]: no

437

00:17:43,502 --> 00:17:48,431

[douglas_giles]: that i just have have to weigh

in on that to expose this delusion it's

438

00:17:48,471 --> 00:17:52,495

[douglas_giles]: a marketing ploy it has always been

since nineteen sixty nine when nolan invented it

439

00:17:52,595 --> 00:17:54,918

[douglas_giles]: is nothing more than a marketing ploy

to

440

00:17:55,740 --> 00:17:55,961

[bob_gatty]: oh

441

00:17:57,140 --> 00:18:01,853

[douglas_giles]: promote membership in the us libertarian party

anyone can look it up of your listeners

442

00:18:02,274 --> 00:18:03,397

[douglas_giles]: that's why he invented it

443

00:18:04,290 --> 00:18:08,073

[bob_gatty]: i had to ask you that question

because i just didn't have a chance to

444

00:18:08,874 --> 00:18:13,038

[bob_gatty]: read that chapter and it and the

title of an intrigue me

445

00:18:13,916 --> 00:18:14,409

[douglas_giles]: hm

446

00:18:15,220 --> 00:18:19,006

[bob_gatty]: but it also brought to mind the

phenomena you know we've talked a little bit

447

00:18:19,066 --> 00:18:19,627

[bob_gatty]: about trump

448

00:18:20,529 --> 00:18:20,549

[douglas_giles]: m

449

00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:25,908

[bob_gatty]: and and you know he calls everything

that he doesn't like fake one way or

450

00:18:25,948 --> 00:18:26,509

[bob_gatty]: another fake

451

00:18:26,369 --> 00:18:26,554

[douglas_giles]: yes

452

00:18:26,609 --> 00:18:27,210

[bob_gatty]: news as an

453

00:18:27,269 --> 00:18:27,413

[douglas_giles]: yes

454

00:18:27,290 --> 00:18:32,819

[bob_gatty]: example if it disagrees with him what

are your thoughts about about that

455

00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:36,621

[douglas_giles]: well part of the

456

00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:37,610

[bob_gatty]: a

457

00:18:37,602 --> 00:18:41,165

[douglas_giles]: ploy if you will that's probably not

a good word i shouldn't use ploy but

458

00:18:41,245 --> 00:18:45,168

[douglas_giles]: part of the methodology of being conservative

459

00:18:44,528 --> 00:18:46,653

[bob_gatty]: so use a big word instead of

a little word

460

00:18:47,109 --> 00:18:48,152

[douglas_giles]: well yeah well

461

00:18:49,180 --> 00:18:50,041

[bob_gatty]: well professors

462

00:18:49,556 --> 00:18:49,957

[douglas_giles]: the method

463

00:18:50,181 --> 00:18:52,343

[bob_gatty]: do that especially

464

00:18:51,852 --> 00:18:52,134

[douglas_giles]: well it's

465

00:18:52,423 --> 00:18:54,726

[bob_gatty]: professors of philosophy

466

00:18:56,472 --> 00:18:58,295

[douglas_giles]: no i could use bigger words

467

00:18:58,431 --> 00:18:58,491

[bob_gatty]: are

468

00:18:58,475 --> 00:18:58,636

[douglas_giles]: but

469

00:18:58,571 --> 00:18:59,433

[bob_gatty]: you good we don't

470

00:18:59,597 --> 00:18:59,737

[douglas_giles]: oh

471

00:18:59,633 --> 00:18:59,974

[bob_gatty]: please

472

00:19:00,499 --> 00:19:02,923

[douglas_giles]: i'm not no no i tried

473

00:19:02,730 --> 00:19:04,230

[bob_gatty]: oh

474

00:19:03,003 --> 00:19:06,348

[douglas_giles]: to i tried to differentiate myself from

my colleagues who i love

475

00:19:06,112 --> 00:19:06,152

[bob_gatty]: m

476

00:19:06,569 --> 00:19:08,011

[douglas_giles]: really but i'm the

477

00:19:08,002 --> 00:19:08,063

[bob_gatty]: m

478

00:19:08,091 --> 00:19:09,233

[douglas_giles]: simplifyer and they

479

00:19:09,210 --> 00:19:12,180

[bob_gatty]: yeah

480

00:19:09,273 --> 00:19:13,340

[douglas_giles]: don't like me because i i like

deal too much with real life and real

481

00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:13,841

[douglas_giles]: language

482

00:19:14,441 --> 00:19:14,601

[bob_gatty]: well

483

00:19:15,003 --> 00:19:15,143

[douglas_giles]: but

484

00:19:15,022 --> 00:19:16,104

[bob_gatty]: thank god for that

485

00:19:16,625 --> 00:19:24,439

[douglas_giles]: yeah thank you sir it's part and

parcel of the conservative agenda to engage

486

00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:24,446

[bob_gatty]: oh

487

00:19:24,499 --> 00:19:25,801

[douglas_giles]: in that dualistic thinking

488

00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:26,342

[bob_gatty]: uh

489

00:19:26,221 --> 00:19:27,584

[douglas_giles]: of generating

490

00:19:27,549 --> 00:19:28,740

[bob_gatty]: h yeah

491

00:19:27,744 --> 00:19:29,547

[douglas_giles]: fear and hate mongering

492

00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:29,850

[bob_gatty]: oh

493

00:19:29,647 --> 00:19:30,208

[douglas_giles]: i will use

494

00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:30,170

[bob_gatty]: m

495

00:19:30,268 --> 00:19:33,434

[douglas_giles]: that term how big or small it

is it's hate mongering

496

00:19:33,635 --> 00:19:33,796

[bob_gatty]: yeah

497

00:19:33,934 --> 00:19:35,036

[douglas_giles]: and it's manipulation

498

00:19:34,860 --> 00:19:35,205

[bob_gatty]: oh

499

00:19:36,038 --> 00:19:43,831

[douglas_giles]: and they know that they can play

on people's spheres all human beings have

500

00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:44,302

[bob_gatty]: oh

501

00:19:44,332 --> 00:19:47,056

[douglas_giles]: fear of the unknown and in philosophy

502

00:19:47,333 --> 00:19:47,353

[bob_gatty]: i

503

00:19:47,537 --> 00:19:49,981

[douglas_giles]: one of the things that we talk

about is the fear of the

504

00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:50,910

[bob_gatty]: yeah

505

00:19:50,141 --> 00:19:58,355

[douglas_giles]: other that people who are different from

us have different practices different languages there's a

506

00:19:58,515 --> 00:20:01,440

[douglas_giles]: central human fear or at least reluctance

507

00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:01,642

[bob_gatty]: oh

508

00:20:01,841 --> 00:20:05,527

[douglas_giles]: about trusting people who are different from

us is part

509

00:20:05,463 --> 00:20:06,210

[bob_gatty]: hm

510

00:20:05,567 --> 00:20:09,759

[douglas_giles]: of our human nature but we can

and should overcome that but

511

00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:10,303

[bob_gatty]: oh

512

00:20:11,945 --> 00:20:16,937

[douglas_giles]: the conservatives of all stripes understand that

that's something that they can manipulate

513

00:20:17,490 --> 00:20:17,851

[bob_gatty]: yeah

514

00:20:18,419 --> 00:20:22,929

[douglas_giles]: and so the whole idea of casting

truth

515

00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:23,940

[bob_gatty]: oh

516

00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:26,777

[douglas_giles]: i think you agree with me here

casting truth as fake news

517

00:20:27,303 --> 00:20:28,283

[bob_gatty]: hm yeah

518

00:20:28,102 --> 00:20:30,054

[douglas_giles]: is the manipulation to

519

00:20:31,102 --> 00:20:31,122

[bob_gatty]: a

520

00:20:31,829 --> 00:20:32,793

[douglas_giles]: say that anything

521

00:20:33,150 --> 00:20:33,333

[bob_gatty]: oh

522

00:20:33,475 --> 00:20:38,795

[douglas_giles]: that is contrary to what you want

to believe it's actually fake it's not true

523

00:20:38,896 --> 00:20:39,458

[douglas_giles]: it's fake

524

00:20:39,984 --> 00:20:40,166

[bob_gatty]: right

525

00:20:40,462 --> 00:20:45,385

[douglas_giles]: in which case then you have a

psychological and intellectual justification

526

00:20:45,930 --> 00:20:46,650

[bob_gatty]: yeah

527

00:20:46,309 --> 00:20:46,990

[douglas_giles]: to ignore it

528

00:20:47,477 --> 00:20:47,660

[bob_gatty]: yeah

529

00:20:47,611 --> 00:20:48,472

[douglas_giles]: that may be

530

00:20:48,510 --> 00:20:48,817

[bob_gatty]: yea

531

00:20:48,532 --> 00:20:50,275

[douglas_giles]: a fact that may be proof you

know

532

00:20:50,314 --> 00:20:50,335

[bob_gatty]: i

533

00:20:50,395 --> 00:20:54,903

[douglas_giles]: there's the birth certificate of president a

boma but no it's fake it's got to

534

00:20:54,943 --> 00:20:55,263

[douglas_giles]: be faked

535

00:20:55,140 --> 00:20:55,341

[bob_gatty]: uh

536

00:20:55,304 --> 00:20:59,251

[douglas_giles]: because it doesn't fit with the paradyme

of the world view

537

00:20:59,139 --> 00:20:59,160

[bob_gatty]: h

538

00:20:59,592 --> 00:21:05,107

[douglas_giles]: of conservatism which says that a black

man couldn't be that smart be that capable

539

00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:11,420

[bob_gatty]: right right right so we had alternative

facts that emerged

540

00:21:11,553 --> 00:21:12,099

[douglas_giles]: hm

541

00:21:12,962 --> 00:21:14,986

[bob_gatty]: early on in the trump administration

542

00:21:15,629 --> 00:21:18,094

[douglas_giles]: because it really is a different world

view it's a

543

00:21:18,091 --> 00:21:18,252

[bob_gatty]: yeah

544

00:21:18,174 --> 00:21:20,298

[douglas_giles]: different way of looking at everything

545

00:21:20,610 --> 00:21:30,065

[bob_gatty]: ah well you know what you were

talking about manifested itself very clearly on january

546

00:21:30,206 --> 00:21:40,543

[bob_gatty]: sixth last year when when that gang

of domestic terris attacked the united states capital

547

00:21:41,365 --> 00:21:41,585

[bob_gatty]: at the

548

00:21:41,660 --> 00:21:42,129

[douglas_giles]: hm

549

00:21:41,725 --> 00:21:45,566

[bob_gatty]: urging of donald john trump once you

say that's true

550

00:21:47,210 --> 00:21:56,560

[douglas_giles]: yes because what you have there is

writ large and very publicly the push of

551

00:21:56,921 --> 00:21:57,742

[douglas_giles]: right winkers

552

00:21:57,274 --> 00:21:57,396

[bob_gatty]: ah

553

00:21:58,003 --> 00:21:58,924

[douglas_giles]: conservatives

554

00:21:58,881 --> 00:21:58,941

[bob_gatty]: m

555

00:21:59,305 --> 00:22:00,567

[douglas_giles]: to concentrate power

556

00:22:01,056 --> 00:22:01,620

[bob_gatty]: hm

557

00:22:02,150 --> 00:22:02,530

[douglas_giles]: one of the

558

00:22:02,430 --> 00:22:02,695

[bob_gatty]: yeah

559

00:22:02,911 --> 00:22:07,018

[douglas_giles]: things that i know is controversial to

some people is the argument that i make

560

00:22:07,078 --> 00:22:07,943

[douglas_giles]: that ann kishm

561

00:22:07,650 --> 00:22:08,340

[bob_gatty]: yeah

562

00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:10,441

[douglas_giles]: is itself part of the right wing

563

00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:10,726

[bob_gatty]: oh

564

00:22:10,542 --> 00:22:14,949

[douglas_giles]: push and the reason why i say

that is that you look at what the

565

00:22:15,029 --> 00:22:15,450

[douglas_giles]: january

566

00:22:15,270 --> 00:22:15,538

[bob_gatty]: oh

567

00:22:15,510 --> 00:22:19,236

[douglas_giles]: sixth was trying to do the mob

was trying to

568

00:22:19,811 --> 00:22:20,580

[bob_gatty]: yeah

569

00:22:20,258 --> 00:22:29,721

[douglas_giles]: subvert rule of law subvert civil discourse

silence anyone who agrees differently disposed of the

570

00:22:29,781 --> 00:22:31,083

[douglas_giles]: mechanisms that are there

571

00:22:32,010 --> 00:22:32,511

[bob_gatty]: oh

572

00:22:32,105 --> 00:22:35,411

[douglas_giles]: vice president pence didn't like the outcome

which is

573

00:22:35,479 --> 00:22:35,619

[bob_gatty]: yeah

574

00:22:35,531 --> 00:22:36,272

[douglas_giles]: perfectly legitimate

575

00:22:36,030 --> 00:22:36,900

[bob_gatty]: yeah

576

00:22:36,312 --> 00:22:39,097

[douglas_giles]: if you don't like the outcome of

election you're entitled to you know

577

00:22:39,020 --> 00:22:39,181

[bob_gatty]: yeah

578

00:22:39,177 --> 00:22:44,606

[douglas_giles]: i voted for the other guy but

he knew and understood as did the majority

579

00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:44,521

[bob_gatty]: oh

580

00:22:44,666 --> 00:22:46,089

[douglas_giles]: of republicans to be honest

581

00:22:46,410 --> 00:22:46,613

[bob_gatty]: oh

582

00:22:46,589 --> 00:22:49,111

[douglas_giles]: that no we have laws we have

583

00:22:49,110 --> 00:22:49,434

[bob_gatty]: oh

584

00:22:49,151 --> 00:22:50,753

[douglas_giles]: a rule of law and

585

00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:51,360

[bob_gatty]: oh

586

00:22:50,793 --> 00:22:56,137

[douglas_giles]: we have a procedure and this procedure

needs to be followed because that circulation of

587

00:22:56,317 --> 00:22:56,758

[douglas_giles]: power

588

00:22:57,390 --> 00:22:57,674

[bob_gatty]: oh

589

00:22:58,359 --> 00:22:59,161

[douglas_giles]: is good

590

00:22:59,340 --> 00:23:00,420

[bob_gatty]: oh

591

00:22:59,341 --> 00:23:03,974

[douglas_giles]: for society and good for everyone within

the society and what the january sixth

592

00:23:03,930 --> 00:23:04,436

[bob_gatty]: oh

593

00:23:04,134 --> 00:23:09,315

[douglas_giles]: mob was saying quite loudly was no

we don't

594

00:23:09,210 --> 00:23:11,220

[bob_gatty]: oh

595

00:23:09,415 --> 00:23:14,745

[douglas_giles]: want that circulation of power we don't

want the rule of law we want anarchy

596

00:23:14,825 --> 00:23:16,227

[douglas_giles]: which is i want what i want

597

00:23:17,051 --> 00:23:18,600

[bob_gatty]: hm

598

00:23:17,169 --> 00:23:18,990

[douglas_giles]: anarchism and libertarianism

599

00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:19,590

[bob_gatty]: oh

600

00:23:19,691 --> 00:23:20,692

[douglas_giles]: always boils down

601

00:23:20,663 --> 00:23:21,360

[bob_gatty]: yeah

602

00:23:20,872 --> 00:23:26,798

[douglas_giles]: to as one person put it that

i really liked the tyranny of the individual

603

00:23:27,419 --> 00:23:30,594

[douglas_giles]: the absolutism of well what my desires

604

00:23:30,721 --> 00:23:30,886

[bob_gatty]: yeah

605

00:23:30,755 --> 00:23:36,355

[douglas_giles]: are is how things should be and

if i have the power to assert that

606

00:23:36,835 --> 00:23:39,650

[douglas_giles]: and have the power to push

607

00:23:39,690 --> 00:23:40,054

[bob_gatty]: oh

608

00:23:39,851 --> 00:23:42,603

[douglas_giles]: that on to other people or on

a society

609

00:23:42,060 --> 00:23:42,242

[bob_gatty]: ye

610

00:23:42,703 --> 00:23:44,911

[douglas_giles]: as a whole then i

611

00:23:44,910 --> 00:23:45,151

[bob_gatty]: yeah

612

00:23:45,072 --> 00:23:48,546

[douglas_giles]: am justified in doing so might makes

right

613

00:23:49,140 --> 00:23:49,621

[bob_gatty]: oh

614

00:23:49,399 --> 00:23:53,791

[douglas_giles]: and that's exactly what january sixth was

about it wasn't it was subverting the rule

615

00:23:53,851 --> 00:24:01,670

[douglas_giles]: of law subverting proper protocol disregard for

not just the system just a state society

616

00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:06,110

[douglas_giles]: as a whole humanity as a whole

because i don't like this so i'm just

617

00:24:06,130 --> 00:24:07,134

[douglas_giles]: going to force it

618

00:24:08,165 --> 00:24:09,240

[bob_gatty]: yeah

619

00:24:08,669 --> 00:24:09,693

[douglas_giles]: it's like the bus

620

00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,124

[bob_gatty]: oh

621

00:24:09,773 --> 00:24:13,287

[douglas_giles]: are the bully on a grand macro

social scale

622

00:24:14,331 --> 00:24:18,398

[bob_gatty]: weren't these people duped by trump really

and they just believed this guy

623

00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:25,288

[douglas_giles]: oh i'm sure different individuals within the

movement

624

00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:25,956

[bob_gatty]: hm

625

00:24:26,150 --> 00:24:28,977

[douglas_giles]: had different motivations and different beliefs about

it

626

00:24:29,524 --> 00:24:30,030

[bob_gatty]: hm

627

00:24:30,059 --> 00:24:30,479

[douglas_giles]: obviously

628

00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:31,200

[bob_gatty]: yeah

629

00:24:30,539 --> 00:24:32,302

[douglas_giles]: there was manipulation going on

630

00:24:32,450 --> 00:24:32,610

[bob_gatty]: yeah

631

00:24:32,483 --> 00:24:34,526

[douglas_giles]: obviously there was this idea

632

00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:35,550

[bob_gatty]: yeah

633

00:24:34,927 --> 00:24:37,182

[douglas_giles]: of these people are

634

00:24:37,170 --> 00:24:37,313

[bob_gatty]: ye

635

00:24:37,282 --> 00:24:42,789

[douglas_giles]: stealing something from you because they're going

to give it to somebody else now that

636

00:24:42,869 --> 00:24:49,523

[douglas_giles]: you don't like and one of my

definitions of conservatism or at least a particular

637

00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:49,413

[bob_gatty]: yeah

638

00:24:49,623 --> 00:24:50,864

[douglas_giles]: thread of conservatism

639

00:24:50,727 --> 00:24:50,869

[bob_gatty]: yeah

640

00:24:51,565 --> 00:24:52,686

[douglas_giles]: is that conservatism

641

00:24:52,532 --> 00:24:52,673

[bob_gatty]: ah

642

00:24:52,826 --> 00:24:59,946

[douglas_giles]: is the dread fear somewhere someone who

you think is your inferior is being treated

643

00:25:00,047 --> 00:25:00,633

[douglas_giles]: as your equal

644

00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:03,720

[bob_gatty]: yeah

645

00:25:02,819 --> 00:25:08,208

[douglas_giles]: and that idea is at the heart

of so much social prejudice again everywhere in

646

00:25:08,268 --> 00:25:13,617

[douglas_giles]: the world it's not just the united

states the idea that oh i think blacks

647

00:25:13,797 --> 00:25:17,593

[douglas_giles]: gaze women immigrants catholics protestants

648

00:25:17,820 --> 00:25:18,503

[bob_gatty]: uh

649

00:25:17,854 --> 00:25:19,750

[douglas_giles]: whatever these are my

650

00:25:19,809 --> 00:25:19,830

[bob_gatty]: h

651

00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:22,378

[douglas_giles]: inferiors these are people who are less

than me

652

00:25:22,871 --> 00:25:23,093

[bob_gatty]: right

653

00:25:23,060 --> 00:25:27,229

[douglas_giles]: how could they possibly be allowed to

654

00:25:27,261 --> 00:25:27,342

[bob_gatty]: ah

655

00:25:27,329 --> 00:25:28,851

[douglas_giles]: be equal to me politically

656

00:25:28,412 --> 00:25:28,656

[bob_gatty]: right

657

00:25:28,951 --> 00:25:30,013

[douglas_giles]: socially economically

658

00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:31,650

[bob_gatty]: yeah

659

00:25:31,075 --> 00:25:38,734

[douglas_giles]: and that fear dread fear is so

easy to exploit in certain people not everyone

660

00:25:39,535 --> 00:25:40,116

[douglas_giles]: these these

661

00:25:40,022 --> 00:25:40,164

[bob_gatty]: ah

662

00:25:40,337 --> 00:25:41,939

[douglas_giles]: manipulations don't work on everybody

663

00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:42,222

[bob_gatty]: sure

664

00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,924

[douglas_giles]: but they do work on certain people

that are consumed

665

00:25:44,970 --> 00:25:46,236

[bob_gatty]: oh

666

00:25:44,984 --> 00:25:47,529

[douglas_giles]: by their fear there's a certain cowardice

out there

667

00:25:47,644 --> 00:25:48,026

[bob_gatty]: so there

668

00:25:47,849 --> 00:25:51,901

[douglas_giles]: we saw this in the pandemic also

where you can play on these fears and

669

00:25:51,921 --> 00:25:53,465

[douglas_giles]: these ridiculous conspiracy

670

00:25:52,770 --> 00:25:53,037

[bob_gatty]: oh

671

00:25:53,605 --> 00:25:54,087

[douglas_giles]: theories

672

00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:54,394

[bob_gatty]: yeah

673

00:25:55,309 --> 00:26:00,558

[douglas_giles]: denying first it was denying that covid

even existed and obviously that that was unsustainable

674

00:26:00,638 --> 00:26:00,978

[douglas_giles]: then it's like

675

00:26:00,971 --> 00:26:01,579

[bob_gatty]: yeah

676

00:26:01,038 --> 00:26:04,324

[douglas_giles]: denying that masks work denying the vaccines

work denying that this

677

00:26:04,365 --> 00:26:04,586

[bob_gatty]: right

678

00:26:04,444 --> 00:26:05,145

[douglas_giles]: that and the other thing

679

00:26:05,421 --> 00:26:05,603

[bob_gatty]: right

680

00:26:06,167 --> 00:26:10,782

[douglas_giles]: it's easy to explo because we keep

these people active in their fear

681

00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:11,423

[bob_gatty]: oh

682

00:26:11,263 --> 00:26:18,691

[douglas_giles]: flooded with their feelings of fear and

anxiety over the circulation of power then they

683

00:26:18,771 --> 00:26:26,711

[douglas_giles]: are easy to manipulate now there's an

ongoing investigation about how much real influence there

684

00:26:26,791 --> 00:26:32,460

[douglas_giles]: was from trump and others into formenting

this is clearly there was some but to

685

00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:37,288

[douglas_giles]: what extent i'm not prepared to say

but that's part of how it always works

686

00:26:38,201 --> 00:26:44,571

[bob_gatty]: well as as we record this the

final hearing of the january six committee

687

00:26:44,561 --> 00:26:45,099

[douglas_giles]: okay

688

00:26:44,712 --> 00:26:46,414

[bob_gatty]: is as just started

689

00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:47,620

[douglas_giles]: oh

690

00:26:47,596 --> 00:26:55,265

[bob_gatty]: in and and i suspect we'll know

more by the time that committee's work is

691

00:26:55,385 --> 00:27:00,390

[bob_gatty]: finished the question is what what will

they do and

692

00:27:00,335 --> 00:27:00,849

[douglas_giles]: hm

693

00:27:00,470 --> 00:27:09,147

[bob_gatty]: what will the justice department do once

it's finished um now i wanted to i

694

00:27:09,207 --> 00:27:13,172

[bob_gatty]: wanted to get back to your book

a little bit i want to give you

695

00:27:13,232 --> 00:27:21,141

[bob_gatty]: an opportunity to tell the folks really

more about what you've got one of the

696

00:27:21,201 --> 00:27:26,730

[bob_gatty]: things that i wanted to ask you

about is you've got a chapter that talks

697

00:27:26,830 --> 00:27:31,638

[bob_gatty]: about the fake left and the reactionary

right let's talk about that

698

00:27:32,529 --> 00:27:32,851

[douglas_giles]: oh

699

00:27:32,661 --> 00:27:33,425

[bob_gatty]: what you've been there

700

00:27:34,441 --> 00:27:41,667

[douglas_giles]: yes there is political discourse and i

do believe that there is legitimate and proper

701

00:27:42,088 --> 00:27:47,197

[douglas_giles]: political discussion and debate between people who

we would call conservatives and people who

702

00:27:47,133 --> 00:27:47,154

[bob_gatty]: a

703

00:27:47,397 --> 00:27:49,581

[douglas_giles]: would call liberals because there are

704

00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:49,722

[bob_gatty]: oh

705

00:27:49,701 --> 00:27:52,246

[douglas_giles]: certain instances where a certain

706

00:27:52,110 --> 00:27:52,130

[bob_gatty]: m

707

00:27:52,286 --> 00:27:56,094

[douglas_giles]: amount of concentration of power is a

good and positive thing i

708

00:27:56,122 --> 00:27:56,162

[bob_gatty]: hm

709

00:27:56,174 --> 00:27:57,817

[douglas_giles]: don't think this is an either or

710

00:27:58,489 --> 00:27:58,530

[bob_gatty]: hm

711

00:27:58,929 --> 00:28:00,051

[douglas_giles]: where you have to have

712

00:28:00,030 --> 00:28:00,291

[bob_gatty]: yes

713

00:28:00,171 --> 00:28:05,079

[douglas_giles]: either complete agalitarian society or complete total

talitarianism it is a spectrum

714

00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,120

[bob_gatty]: yeah

715

00:28:05,199 --> 00:28:05,880

[douglas_giles]: and there are

716

00:28:06,311 --> 00:28:06,453

[bob_gatty]: oh

717

00:28:06,381 --> 00:28:09,146

[douglas_giles]: good places in the middle

718

00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:10,980

[bob_gatty]: yeah

719

00:28:09,687 --> 00:28:15,560

[douglas_giles]: where our society should or where we

should be on particular issues what the far

720

00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:22,944

[douglas_giles]: left and the far right as they're

usually known re doing is literally stepping outside

721

00:28:23,265 --> 00:28:25,028

[douglas_giles]: of political dialogue

722

00:28:24,912 --> 00:28:25,095

[bob_gatty]: yeah

723

00:28:25,228 --> 00:28:27,993

[douglas_giles]: and i would argue as i do

in the book that

724

00:28:27,911 --> 00:28:29,220

[bob_gatty]: eh

725

00:28:28,033 --> 00:28:34,421

[douglas_giles]: they're actually removing themselves from the political

spectrum there is an old idea that was

726

00:28:34,541 --> 00:28:41,147

[douglas_giles]: developed in nineteen fifties by a french

philosopher that tried to explain how it is

727

00:28:41,287 --> 00:28:41,787

[douglas_giles]: that hitler

728

00:28:41,850 --> 00:28:41,870

[bob_gatty]: m

729

00:28:41,907 --> 00:28:45,252

[douglas_giles]: and stalin had a war with each

other

730

00:28:45,898 --> 00:28:46,680

[bob_gatty]: hm

731

00:28:46,214 --> 00:28:49,520

[douglas_giles]: because he brought into that old falsehood

732

00:28:48,930 --> 00:28:49,172

[bob_gatty]: oh

733

00:28:49,780 --> 00:28:52,745

[douglas_giles]: that communism and stalinism

734

00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:52,514

[bob_gatty]: oh

735

00:28:53,246 --> 00:28:57,933

[douglas_giles]: is left wing no they're not they're

both right wing and that's why i used

736

00:28:57,953 --> 00:29:00,958

[douglas_giles]: that example in the book but what

the french philosopher came up

737

00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:01,370

[bob_gatty]: oh

738

00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:04,685

[douglas_giles]: with is this idea of horseshoe theory

and a lot of your audience might be

739

00:29:04,745 --> 00:29:09,141

[douglas_giles]: familiar with this idea which is that

the extremes on both left

740

00:29:09,171 --> 00:29:09,413

[bob_gatty]: yeah

741

00:29:09,222 --> 00:29:11,641

[douglas_giles]: and right are so extreme that

742

00:29:11,671 --> 00:29:12,014

[bob_gatty]: yeah

743

00:29:11,681 --> 00:29:15,669

[douglas_giles]: they bend toward a common point and

so you can see the spectrum as a

744

00:29:15,730 --> 00:29:16,251

[douglas_giles]: horse shoe

745

00:29:16,631 --> 00:29:16,853

[bob_gatty]: okay

746

00:29:16,692 --> 00:29:19,517

[douglas_giles]: where you've got the left and the

right but the center is the good bit

747

00:29:19,711 --> 00:29:19,954

[bob_gatty]: right

748

00:29:21,099 --> 00:29:22,541

[douglas_giles]: maybe that's true maybe that's not

749

00:29:22,903 --> 00:29:23,430

[bob_gatty]: hm

750

00:29:23,062 --> 00:29:23,663

[douglas_giles]: but my

751

00:29:23,730 --> 00:29:23,871

[bob_gatty]: ye

752

00:29:23,803 --> 00:29:26,067

[douglas_giles]: point in the chapter is that

753

00:29:26,310 --> 00:29:26,574

[bob_gatty]: yeah

754

00:29:26,427 --> 00:29:27,920

[douglas_giles]: really what you're

755

00:29:27,750 --> 00:29:27,970

[bob_gatty]: oh

756

00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:37,672

[douglas_giles]: seeing with these far left and right

extremists are people who have completely succumbed to

757

00:29:38,234 --> 00:29:44,871

[douglas_giles]: their notions of opposition so they're really

the anti left and the anti right the

758

00:29:44,931 --> 00:29:49,186

[douglas_giles]: reactionary rite is completely about

759

00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:49,161

[bob_gatty]: oh

760

00:29:51,019 --> 00:29:51,804

[douglas_giles]: opposing

761

00:29:52,041 --> 00:29:52,142

[bob_gatty]: oh

762

00:29:52,147 --> 00:29:59,435

[douglas_giles]: anything that's left you see certain congress

people in the house right now who i

763

00:29:59,475 --> 00:30:05,633

[douglas_giles]: will not name who all they talk

about is how awful

764

00:30:05,691 --> 00:30:05,852

[bob_gatty]: yeah

765

00:30:07,409 --> 00:30:10,553

[douglas_giles]: gas are and blacks are and feminists

766

00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:10,882

[bob_gatty]: yeah

767

00:30:10,793 --> 00:30:13,357

[douglas_giles]: are and trans people are all

768

00:30:13,230 --> 00:30:14,769

[bob_gatty]: oh

769

00:30:13,477 --> 00:30:19,295

[douglas_giles]: they do twenty four seven is talk

about their opposition to these people they deem

770

00:30:19,376 --> 00:30:19,876

[douglas_giles]: left ists

771

00:30:20,183 --> 00:30:20,387

[bob_gatty]: right

772

00:30:20,377 --> 00:30:23,803

[douglas_giles]: so are there not having a political

conversation they're just anti left

773

00:30:24,012 --> 00:30:24,176

[bob_gatty]: right

774

00:30:24,384 --> 00:30:25,185

[douglas_giles]: so the reactionary

775

00:30:24,780 --> 00:30:25,680

[bob_gatty]: yeah

776

00:30:25,346 --> 00:30:25,987

[douglas_giles]: because they react

777

00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:25,940

[bob_gatty]: ye

778

00:30:26,507 --> 00:30:29,454

[douglas_giles]: their react and constantly to the existence

779

00:30:29,250 --> 00:30:29,452

[bob_gatty]: oh

780

00:30:29,714 --> 00:30:30,857

[douglas_giles]: of people who are left

781

00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:31,231

[bob_gatty]: yeah

782

00:30:32,009 --> 00:30:32,550

[douglas_giles]: and the anti

783

00:30:32,850 --> 00:30:33,480

[bob_gatty]: oh

784

00:30:33,151 --> 00:30:37,999

[douglas_giles]: right which i call the fake left

they do claim to be of the left

785

00:30:38,019 --> 00:30:41,465

[douglas_giles]: they claim to be liberals but in

actuality they

786

00:30:41,340 --> 00:30:41,602

[bob_gatty]: oh

787

00:30:41,645 --> 00:30:45,714

[douglas_giles]: are so ab s with their opposition

to the right wing

788

00:30:45,489 --> 00:30:45,984

[bob_gatty]: m yes

789

00:30:46,356 --> 00:30:47,719

[douglas_giles]: that they are

790

00:30:48,271 --> 00:30:48,291

[bob_gatty]: i

791

00:30:48,341 --> 00:30:50,027

[douglas_giles]: again opting out of a dialogue

792

00:30:50,370 --> 00:30:50,655

[bob_gatty]: yes

793

00:30:50,779 --> 00:30:52,421

[douglas_giles]: they are just anti right it's

794

00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:53,060

[bob_gatty]: oh

795

00:30:52,842 --> 00:30:56,248

[douglas_giles]: the people who show up at protests

and all they want to do is throw

796

00:30:56,368 --> 00:31:02,638

[douglas_giles]: bottles at cops they're the people who

want to just turn everything into this grand

797

00:31:02,759 --> 00:31:08,188

[douglas_giles]: onspiracy theory of all the ignorant right

winners are out after us well there are

798

00:31:08,228 --> 00:31:10,892

[douglas_giles]: some ignorant right wingersandthre's a lot of

ignorant leftwingers also

799

00:31:11,506 --> 00:31:12,090

[bob_gatty]: hm

800

00:31:11,894 --> 00:31:16,682

[douglas_giles]: and there they're the fake left because

they are not live up to what being

801

00:31:16,782 --> 00:31:16,982

[douglas_giles]: left

802

00:31:17,001 --> 00:31:17,082

[bob_gatty]: ah

803

00:31:17,062 --> 00:31:23,233

[douglas_giles]: really means which is circulating more power

circulating more freedom and that has to include

804

00:31:23,733 --> 00:31:27,923

[douglas_giles]: rational dialogue and not just turning those

people who

805

00:31:27,882 --> 00:31:28,590

[bob_gatty]: yeah

806

00:31:28,004 --> 00:31:31,016

[douglas_giles]: you see as your political enemies into

sub human monsters

807

00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:31,542

[bob_gatty]: yeah

808

00:31:31,659 --> 00:31:33,367

[douglas_giles]: that's what the right the far right

does

809

00:31:33,579 --> 00:31:33,781

[bob_gatty]: yeah

810

00:31:33,790 --> 00:31:36,481

[douglas_giles]: and if the far left does it

they're no different

811

00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:43,371

[bob_gatty]: uh huh yeah okay now do you

think the

812

00:31:43,299 --> 00:31:43,319

[douglas_giles]: m

813

00:31:43,432 --> 00:31:44,312

[bob_gatty]: united states

814

00:31:44,649 --> 00:31:44,813

[douglas_giles]: oh

815

00:31:44,873 --> 00:31:52,339

[bob_gatty]: specifically but perhaps other countries your your

experience is much broader than the united states

816

00:31:53,052 --> 00:31:56,557

[bob_gatty]: he becoming more liberal or more conservative

817

00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:05,335

[douglas_giles]: i think the us has been on

a right word trend since the early nineties

818

00:32:05,515 --> 00:32:06,337

[douglas_giles]: or mid nineties

819

00:32:07,177 --> 00:32:07,339

[bob_gatty]: why

820

00:32:07,439 --> 00:32:09,146

[douglas_giles]: and i think that's been why

821

00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:09,543

[bob_gatty]: yeah

822

00:32:10,529 --> 00:32:10,730

[douglas_giles]: why do

823

00:32:10,770 --> 00:32:10,952

[bob_gatty]: oh

824

00:32:10,791 --> 00:32:12,364

[douglas_giles]: i say that or why do i

think it's happening

825

00:32:12,122 --> 00:32:13,152

[bob_gatty]: why do you think it's happening

826

00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:16,892

[douglas_giles]: i think it's happening because i think

that there was

827

00:32:17,130 --> 00:32:17,715

[bob_gatty]: oh

828

00:32:17,933 --> 00:32:21,837

[douglas_giles]: a more progressive left word trend from

829

00:32:21,998 --> 00:32:22,530

[bob_gatty]: hm

830

00:32:22,859 --> 00:32:28,347

[douglas_giles]: the time of f d r up

until the sixties and seventies and

831

00:32:29,090 --> 00:32:29,252

[bob_gatty]: yeah

832

00:32:29,539 --> 00:32:33,145

[douglas_giles]: the nature of society tends to be

that pendulums swing

833

00:32:32,940 --> 00:32:33,304

[bob_gatty]: oh

834

00:32:33,726 --> 00:32:35,328

[douglas_giles]: from one side to the other

835

00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:35,707

[bob_gatty]: uh

836

00:32:36,551 --> 00:32:43,626

[douglas_giles]: and i do also think that there's

been a very concerted effort among libertarians corporatists

837

00:32:44,509 --> 00:32:50,747

[douglas_giles]: certain factors who are right wing to

try to move the nation to the right

838

00:32:51,609 --> 00:32:52,992

[douglas_giles]: and one of the interesting

839

00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:53,501

[bob_gatty]: oh

840

00:32:53,152 --> 00:32:56,700

[douglas_giles]: things about conservatism as a movement world

841

00:32:56,529 --> 00:32:56,649

[bob_gatty]: yeah

842

00:32:56,801 --> 00:32:57,181

[douglas_giles]: wide

843

00:32:57,090 --> 00:32:57,533

[bob_gatty]: oh

844

00:32:57,723 --> 00:32:59,747

[douglas_giles]: is they tend to have the power

845

00:33:00,030 --> 00:33:00,373

[bob_gatty]: uh

846

00:33:00,359 --> 00:33:03,865

[douglas_giles]: they tend to have the money that

tend to have the ability to influence when

847

00:33:03,905 --> 00:33:06,371

[douglas_giles]: you own the media you control

848

00:33:06,270 --> 00:33:06,512

[bob_gatty]: oh

849

00:33:06,392 --> 00:33:12,067

[douglas_giles]: the message and you can push your

agenda and i think we've seen that happening

850

00:33:12,087 --> 00:33:12,208

[douglas_giles]: it's

851

00:33:12,150 --> 00:33:12,720

[bob_gatty]: uh

852

00:33:12,248 --> 00:33:13,334

[douglas_giles]: not just fox news

853

00:33:13,531 --> 00:33:13,692

[bob_gatty]: yeah

854

00:33:15,150 --> 00:33:17,013

[douglas_giles]: it's something that goes back to

855

00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:18,423

[bob_gatty]: yeah

856

00:33:19,517 --> 00:33:21,681

[douglas_giles]: the seventies when there was a very

deliberate

857

00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,910

[bob_gatty]: okay

858

00:33:22,282 --> 00:33:24,686

[douglas_giles]: effort by conservatives in

859

00:33:24,570 --> 00:33:24,892

[bob_gatty]: yeah

860

00:33:25,668 --> 00:33:27,490

[douglas_giles]: the united dem and the united states

861

00:33:27,690 --> 00:33:28,015

[bob_gatty]: oh

862

00:33:27,951 --> 00:33:34,921

[douglas_giles]: to change the agenda to set the

agenda regan and thatcher happened for very solid

863

00:33:34,565 --> 00:33:34,830

[bob_gatty]: right

864

00:33:35,001 --> 00:33:42,258

[douglas_giles]: reasons there was an effort to bring

this type of dialogue if you will into

865

00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,110

[bob_gatty]: oh

866

00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,026

[douglas_giles]: the center piece of

867

00:33:44,850 --> 00:33:45,868

[bob_gatty]: ye

868

00:33:45,779 --> 00:33:46,220

[douglas_giles]: of life

869

00:33:46,290 --> 00:33:46,691

[bob_gatty]: uh

870

00:33:46,460 --> 00:33:47,422

[douglas_giles]: for both countries

871

00:33:47,834 --> 00:33:47,854

[bob_gatty]: h

872

00:33:48,484 --> 00:33:53,692

[douglas_giles]: and the idea of the overton window

where you can say that well the dialogue

873

00:33:53,833 --> 00:33:53,993

[douglas_giles]: is

874

00:33:54,003 --> 00:33:54,186

[bob_gatty]: yeah

875

00:33:54,494 --> 00:33:56,397

[douglas_giles]: within here's what left means and here's

876

00:33:56,430 --> 00:33:58,230

[bob_gatty]: yeah

877

00:33:56,437 --> 00:34:01,726

[douglas_giles]: what right wing means and the dialogue

occurs within that window of definition

878

00:34:01,995 --> 00:34:02,216

[bob_gatty]: right

879

00:34:02,988 --> 00:34:05,833

[douglas_giles]: when it's slowly when it's constantly

880

00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:06,260

[bob_gatty]: m

881

00:34:06,694 --> 00:34:07,716

[douglas_giles]: pushed to the right

882

00:34:08,034 --> 00:34:08,640

[bob_gatty]: hm

883

00:34:08,036 --> 00:34:15,781

[douglas_giles]: by the media by the by powers

that be then what was considered

884

00:34:15,855 --> 00:34:15,875

[bob_gatty]: i

885

00:34:15,881 --> 00:34:18,316

[douglas_giles]: extreme right fifty years

886

00:34:18,218 --> 00:34:18,420

[bob_gatty]: yeah

887

00:34:18,418 --> 00:34:22,034

[douglas_giles]: ago is now almost considered left wing

888

00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:22,622

[bob_gatty]: ye

889

00:34:24,510 --> 00:34:30,363

[douglas_giles]: it's how i'm not a conspiracy through

but but i think it's just power

890

00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:30,702

[bob_gatty]: yeah

891

00:34:31,085 --> 00:34:31,887

[douglas_giles]: using its power

892

00:34:32,984 --> 00:34:33,428

[bob_gatty]: do you think

893

00:34:33,301 --> 00:34:34,048

[douglas_giles]: to manipulate

894

00:34:33,549 --> 00:34:33,690

[bob_gatty]: that

895

00:34:34,129 --> 00:34:34,513

[douglas_giles]: the things

896

00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:35,442

[bob_gatty]: you think that

897

00:34:35,491 --> 00:34:35,572

[douglas_giles]: ah

898

00:34:35,543 --> 00:34:47,216

[bob_gatty]: the election of baracobama exacerbated this movement

strengthen this movement i should say to the

899

00:34:48,472 --> 00:34:48,817

[bob_gatty]: a right

900

00:34:51,724 --> 00:34:54,753

[douglas_giles]: i think there were a certain segment

of the population that

901

00:34:54,910 --> 00:34:55,171

[bob_gatty]: because

902

00:34:55,194 --> 00:34:55,355

[douglas_giles]: did

903

00:34:55,252 --> 00:34:55,996

[bob_gatty]: of bracism

904

00:34:55,415 --> 00:34:57,780

[douglas_giles]: not like yeah that's

905

00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:57,802

[bob_gatty]: yeah

906

00:34:58,020 --> 00:34:59,262

[douglas_giles]: certainly a factor in it

907

00:34:59,400 --> 00:34:59,420

[bob_gatty]: m

908

00:34:59,402 --> 00:34:59,522

[douglas_giles]: but

909

00:34:59,783 --> 00:35:00,390

[bob_gatty]: hm

910

00:35:00,183 --> 00:35:05,310

[douglas_giles]: my personal opinion on that is i

think that one of the things that cause

911

00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:06,833

[douglas_giles]: things to go to the right is

912

00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:07,084

[bob_gatty]: oh

913

00:35:06,974 --> 00:35:12,205

[douglas_giles]: that boma was not sufficiently progressive in

his policies and his actions i think if

914

00:35:12,245 --> 00:35:16,123

[douglas_giles]: he had been bolder this is just

my personal opinion but i think he had

915

00:35:16,163 --> 00:35:20,412

[douglas_giles]: been much bolder on health care issues

on various other

916

00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:20,421

[bob_gatty]: ye

917

00:35:20,552 --> 00:35:23,077

[douglas_giles]: issues that were both economic and social

918

00:35:23,667 --> 00:35:24,240

[bob_gatty]: hm

919

00:35:23,869 --> 00:35:24,750

[douglas_giles]: and really showed

920

00:35:24,862 --> 00:35:24,923

[bob_gatty]: he

921

00:35:24,890 --> 00:35:32,062

[douglas_giles]: how a more progressive agenda that he

campaigned on when he was a senator and

922

00:35:32,202 --> 00:35:38,335

[douglas_giles]: i say this i should mention this

i became familiar with baracobama way back in

923

00:35:38,395 --> 00:35:40,269

[douglas_giles]: two thousand three before

924

00:35:40,178 --> 00:35:40,710

[bob_gatty]: hm

925

00:35:40,329 --> 00:35:42,695

[douglas_giles]: anybody knew him because i was living

in illinois at the time

926

00:35:42,833 --> 00:35:43,058

[bob_gatty]: cary

927

00:35:42,975 --> 00:35:46,303

[douglas_giles]: and i was involved in the democratic

party then i'm no longer involved with the

928

00:35:46,323 --> 00:35:50,025

[douglas_giles]: democratic party full uh full disclosure there

929

00:35:50,522 --> 00:35:50,603

[bob_gatty]: it

930

00:35:50,869 --> 00:35:57,346

[douglas_giles]: but at that time i knew bracobama

before anyone else knew about him outside of

931

00:35:57,481 --> 00:35:57,642

[bob_gatty]: yes

932

00:35:58,408 --> 00:36:00,691

[douglas_giles]: the people in the state legislature in

illinois

933

00:36:01,013 --> 00:36:01,620

[bob_gatty]: hm

934

00:36:01,433 --> 00:36:04,678

[douglas_giles]: and he was much more progressive than

an

935

00:36:04,543 --> 00:36:05,070

[bob_gatty]: hm

936

00:36:05,419 --> 00:36:05,840

[douglas_giles]: whether it's

937

00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:06,630

[bob_gatty]: yeah

938

00:36:06,020 --> 00:36:10,146

[douglas_giles]: true as some people say that washington

d c turns every one a little bit

939

00:36:10,186 --> 00:36:14,322

[douglas_giles]: to the right or ward the system

or however you want to think about it

940

00:36:14,331 --> 00:36:14,473

[bob_gatty]: yes

941

00:36:15,263 --> 00:36:21,038

[douglas_giles]: if he had i think been that

type of president when i helped campaign for

942

00:36:21,098 --> 00:36:26,533

[douglas_giles]: him for his first senate seat we

might have had a different thing but because

943

00:36:27,254 --> 00:36:30,780

[douglas_giles]: he didn't move the window to the

left because he

944

00:36:30,780 --> 00:36:31,068

[bob_gatty]: yeah

945

00:36:30,860 --> 00:36:33,825

[douglas_giles]: governed from the center which is his

right you know that's what he thought was

946

00:36:33,885 --> 00:36:34,146

[douglas_giles]: best

947

00:36:34,573 --> 00:36:35,160

[bob_gatty]: hm

948

00:36:34,747 --> 00:36:36,755

[douglas_giles]: and he's a very smart man and

but

949

00:36:36,813 --> 00:36:37,320

[bob_gatty]: hm

950

00:36:37,017 --> 00:36:38,125

[douglas_giles]: he governed from the center

951

00:36:37,860 --> 00:36:38,081

[bob_gatty]: oh

952

00:36:39,009 --> 00:36:40,532

[douglas_giles]: and a lot of his decisions

953

00:36:40,571 --> 00:36:40,631

[bob_gatty]: ye

954

00:36:40,572 --> 00:36:43,258

[douglas_giles]: and policies were center or right of

center

955

00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:43,820

[bob_gatty]: h

956

00:36:43,969 --> 00:36:44,651

[douglas_giles]: and so i think

957

00:36:44,649 --> 00:36:44,670

[bob_gatty]: m

958

00:36:44,752 --> 00:36:50,565

[douglas_giles]: that helped the conservatives moved that window

more to the right the ra system

959

00:36:50,493 --> 00:36:50,596

[bob_gatty]: oh

960

00:36:50,826 --> 00:36:53,690

[douglas_giles]: was certainly something that they could exploit

and they did a very good job of

961

00:36:53,771 --> 00:36:54,412

[douglas_giles]: exploiting that

962

00:36:54,471 --> 00:36:54,635

[bob_gatty]: yeah

963

00:36:54,953 --> 00:36:55,694

[douglas_giles]: trump of course

964

00:36:55,530 --> 00:36:56,490

[bob_gatty]: oh

965

00:36:56,415 --> 00:37:00,963

[douglas_giles]: what was his real claim to i'm

not being on some silly t v program

966

00:37:01,050 --> 00:37:01,800

[bob_gatty]: yeah

967

00:37:01,423 --> 00:37:05,230

[douglas_giles]: it was because he was one of

the first to be a truth er about

968

00:37:05,650 --> 00:37:06,872

[douglas_giles]: the birth certificate it

969

00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:07,021

[bob_gatty]: yeah

970

00:37:06,892 --> 00:37:08,114

[douglas_giles]: was total nonsense of course

971

00:37:08,492 --> 00:37:08,676

[bob_gatty]: right

972

00:37:08,555 --> 00:37:12,523

[douglas_giles]: but he knew how manipulate that narrative

973

00:37:12,270 --> 00:37:13,260

[bob_gatty]: yeah

974

00:37:12,723 --> 00:37:18,555

[douglas_giles]: and he did and he parleyed eventually

into becoming president to the shock and amazement

975

00:37:18,615 --> 00:37:19,657

[douglas_giles]: of everyone including him

976

00:37:21,220 --> 00:37:28,073

[bob_gatty]: m i personally believe that race ism

played a huge role and this in this

977

00:37:28,594 --> 00:37:30,197

[bob_gatty]: movement that you're talking about

978

00:37:30,519 --> 00:37:31,239

[douglas_giles]: yeah

979

00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:39,224

[bob_gatty]: to the right and and i also

believe that m that side of the political

980

00:37:39,324 --> 00:37:48,731

[bob_gatty]: spectrum was so pissed off that we

had a african american president that they were

981

00:37:48,791 --> 00:37:53,679

[bob_gatty]: determined that they were going to get

their pound of pound of flesh and

982

00:37:54,382 --> 00:37:54,504

[douglas_giles]: yeah

983

00:37:54,721 --> 00:37:59,249

[bob_gatty]: and that's a sentence putting it pretty

simply but that's what i believe do you

984

00:37:59,289 --> 00:37:59,709

[bob_gatty]: disagree

985

00:37:59,519 --> 00:37:59,640

[douglas_giles]: yeah

986

00:37:59,852 --> 00:38:00,360

[bob_gatty]: that or not

987

00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,682

[douglas_giles]: well it's that's gonna say the dread

fear

988

00:38:03,890 --> 00:38:04,013

[bob_gatty]: yeah

989

00:38:04,103 --> 00:38:08,068

[douglas_giles]: that someone you think is your inferior

is being treated as your equal how can

990

00:38:09,109 --> 00:38:10,494

[douglas_giles]: you know they called him a monkey

991

00:38:10,775 --> 00:38:10,916

[bob_gatty]: yeah

992

00:38:10,815 --> 00:38:11,919

[douglas_giles]: they called him african

993

00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:12,242

[bob_gatty]: yeah

994

00:38:12,481 --> 00:38:13,866

[douglas_giles]: that's what they meant

995

00:38:13,981 --> 00:38:22,345

[bob_gatty]: yeah exactly right oh okay so what

what do you think all this means for

996

00:38:22,405 --> 00:38:23,528

[bob_gatty]: the future of this country

997

00:38:24,699 --> 00:38:24,899

[douglas_giles]: yeah

998

00:38:28,220 --> 00:38:33,829

[douglas_giles]: i think we do need to change

the dialogue i think that if the united

999

00:38:33,909 --> 00:38:38,024

[douglas_giles]: states is going to be a functioning

1000

00:38:38,310 --> 00:38:38,617

[bob_gatty]: yeah

1001

00:38:38,879 --> 00:38:41,472

[douglas_giles]: democracy that lives up to

1002

00:38:41,430 --> 00:38:41,752

[bob_gatty]: oh

1003

00:38:41,512 --> 00:38:48,126

[douglas_giles]: the meaning of its creed that really

people are equal the dialogue needs to change

1004

00:38:48,607 --> 00:38:56,887

[douglas_giles]: from democrat versus republican horse race mentality

the boxing match mentality that is fed by

1005

00:38:56,987 --> 00:39:00,553

[douglas_giles]: the media it has to start talking

about issues

1006

00:39:00,369 --> 00:39:00,390

[bob_gatty]: m

1007

00:39:01,749 --> 00:39:03,964

[douglas_giles]: has to start talking about what

1008

00:39:04,770 --> 00:39:05,091

[bob_gatty]: oh

1009

00:39:04,829 --> 00:39:11,160

[douglas_giles]: are these issues really about and i

think the most important ingredient in that not

1010

00:39:11,220 --> 00:39:16,701

[douglas_giles]: the only one but the most important

one is the issue of power social power

1011

00:39:17,063 --> 00:39:25,173

[douglas_giles]: economic power personal power political power in

that when you start looking at issues in

1012

00:39:25,293 --> 00:39:31,809

[douglas_giles]: terms of who is allowed to participate

who benefits who has input and who gets

1013

00:39:31,930 --> 00:39:32,775

[douglas_giles]: output from

1014

00:39:32,942 --> 00:39:32,962

[bob_gatty]: a

1015

00:39:33,549 --> 00:39:37,916

[douglas_giles]: every single issue that you have i

mean i just mailed in my ballet today

1016

00:39:38,116 --> 00:39:43,205

[douglas_giles]: actually and so in the town that

i'm still registered in the united states

1017

00:39:43,698 --> 00:39:44,190

[bob_gatty]: hm

1018

00:39:43,926 --> 00:39:48,872

[douglas_giles]: you know i vote for the governor

i vote for the representative there's no senator

1019

00:39:48,952 --> 00:39:52,537

[douglas_giles]: in my state but i vote for

the state

1020

00:39:52,410 --> 00:39:53,760

[bob_gatty]: yeah

1021

00:39:52,617 --> 00:39:55,161

[douglas_giles]: senator the state house person

1022

00:39:55,596 --> 00:39:56,220

[bob_gatty]: hm

1023

00:39:55,662 --> 00:39:59,329

[douglas_giles]: and the mayor and the city council

and the school board and the water control

1024

00:39:59,220 --> 00:39:59,508

[bob_gatty]: oh

1025

00:39:59,409 --> 00:40:00,451

[douglas_giles]: board and all that stuff

1026

00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:00,861

[bob_gatty]: uh

1027

00:40:00,752 --> 00:40:02,596

[douglas_giles]: and in every single race you do

your

1028

00:40:02,550 --> 00:40:02,752

[bob_gatty]: oh

1029

00:40:02,656 --> 00:40:07,812

[douglas_giles]: research and you look at well why

is this person taking the positions that they

1030

00:40:07,953 --> 00:40:08,093

[douglas_giles]: are

1031

00:40:08,154 --> 00:40:08,358

[bob_gatty]: right

1032

00:40:08,695 --> 00:40:09,779

[douglas_giles]: what are their positions

1033

00:40:10,336 --> 00:40:10,950

[bob_gatty]: hm

1034

00:40:10,381 --> 00:40:12,166

[douglas_giles]: and it doesn't matter what the party

is

1035

00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:12,843

[bob_gatty]: uh

1036

00:40:13,339 --> 00:40:22,239

[douglas_giles]: it matters what is there position and

vision four people for how they want to

1037

00:40:22,259 --> 00:40:27,264

[douglas_giles]: see society structured and that's true for

whether you're talking about a city council of

1038

00:40:27,324 --> 00:40:34,571

[douglas_giles]: a suburban city or a whole nation

what are the real issues involved and who

1039

00:40:35,113 --> 00:40:37,815

[douglas_giles]: benefits in the various positions

1040

00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:38,845

[bob_gatty]: oh

1041

00:40:38,829 --> 00:40:39,549

[douglas_giles]: yeah

1042

00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:45,961

[bob_gatty]: douglas that is so true what i

was going to ask you what the message

1043

00:40:46,041 --> 00:40:49,908

[bob_gatty]: is that you want listeners to take

away from this discussion but perhaps you just

1044

00:40:50,028 --> 00:40:51,614

[bob_gatty]: explained it it

1045

00:40:51,499 --> 00:40:54,644

[douglas_giles]: well perhaps i did i mean i

wouldn't mind if they buy the book were

1046

00:40:54,804 --> 00:40:55,926

[douglas_giles]: explain it a little bit better

1047

00:40:56,276 --> 00:40:56,717

[bob_gatty]: oh yeah

1048

00:40:56,587 --> 00:40:59,392

[douglas_giles]: but yeah i know that is really

my message

1049

00:40:59,400 --> 00:40:59,561

[bob_gatty]: yeah

1050

00:40:59,452 --> 00:41:02,958

[douglas_giles]: and and and in everything that i

do in terms of political philosophy i'm going

1051

00:41:02,978 --> 00:41:04,380

[douglas_giles]: to ave a lot other messages too

1052

00:41:04,602 --> 00:41:04,765

[bob_gatty]: right

1053

00:41:05,140 --> 00:41:05,581

[douglas_giles]: but you

1054

00:41:05,550 --> 00:41:05,713

[bob_gatty]: ye

1055

00:41:05,641 --> 00:41:08,083

[douglas_giles]: know if people look me up they

can find me online

1056

00:41:09,001 --> 00:41:09,185

[bob_gatty]: okay

1057

00:41:09,524 --> 00:41:12,327

[douglas_giles]: you know i have my own website

1058

00:41:12,426 --> 00:41:12,588

[bob_gatty]: which

1059

00:41:12,667 --> 00:41:12,687

[douglas_giles]: i

1060

00:41:12,730 --> 00:41:12,871

[bob_gatty]: is

1061

00:41:12,848 --> 00:41:19,528

[douglas_giles]: have up insert philosophy here dot com

i have a page on medium i have

1062

00:41:19,548 --> 00:41:24,837

[douglas_giles]: a youtube channel insert philosophy here i

have a podcast insert philosophy here not that

1063

00:41:24,897 --> 00:41:30,586

[douglas_giles]: it competes with yours in any stretch

of imagination but the consistent message that i'm

1064

00:41:30,626 --> 00:41:35,363

[douglas_giles]: trying to get across is just tell

people start looking beneath the

1065

00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:36,270

[bob_gatty]: oh

1066

00:41:35,423 --> 00:41:39,510

[douglas_giles]: surface start looking beneath the rhetoric of

what's really going on in things and recognize

1067

00:41:39,790 --> 00:41:43,476

[douglas_giles]: that beneath the rhetoric there are real

1068

00:41:43,464 --> 00:41:44,280

[bob_gatty]: yeah

1069

00:41:43,557 --> 00:41:46,622

[douglas_giles]: issues involved and that's issues in terms

of race

1070

00:41:46,641 --> 00:41:47,310

[bob_gatty]: ah

1071

00:41:46,842 --> 00:41:48,625

[douglas_giles]: and gender and class

1072

00:41:48,441 --> 00:41:48,521

[bob_gatty]: oh

1073

00:41:49,046 --> 00:41:50,047

[douglas_giles]: and just anything

1074

00:41:49,949 --> 00:41:50,109

[bob_gatty]: yeah

1075

00:41:50,107 --> 00:41:55,296

[douglas_giles]: imaginable these issues are out there and

if people would just educate themselves and take

1076

00:41:55,356 --> 00:42:00,014

[douglas_giles]: the time to get paid s binary

opposition and really

1077

00:42:00,051 --> 00:42:00,152

[bob_gatty]: ah

1078

00:42:00,054 --> 00:42:04,183

[douglas_giles]: start looking at issues and start looking

at other human beings listen and talk

1079

00:42:04,172 --> 00:42:04,294

[bob_gatty]: yeah

1080

00:42:04,504 --> 00:42:05,987

[douglas_giles]: listen we don't have enough listening

1081

00:42:05,934 --> 00:42:07,050

[bob_gatty]: yeah

1082

00:42:06,659 --> 00:42:07,828

[douglas_giles]: anywhere in the world these days

1083

00:42:08,090 --> 00:42:12,037

[bob_gatty]: for sure and once again the name

of your book is

1084

00:42:14,141 --> 00:42:22,674

[douglas_giles]: what left and right mean re thinking

the political spectrum and clarifying the political spectrum

1085

00:42:23,715 --> 00:42:31,283

[douglas_giles]: it's available at most book stores so

they can get it online amazon barns and

1086

00:42:31,343 --> 00:42:35,991

[douglas_giles]: noble i don't know how well it's

penetrated into independent book stores which you should

1087

00:42:36,031 --> 00:42:39,156

[douglas_giles]: be buying from if you if you

have an independent book story in your neighborhood

1088

00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:39,623

[bob_gatty]: for sure

1089

00:42:40,138 --> 00:42:43,047

[douglas_giles]: but ah it's what left and right

mean

1090

00:42:43,020 --> 00:42:43,141

[bob_gatty]: ye

1091

00:42:47,985 --> 00:42:49,308

[bob_gatty]: you froze up are you still there

1092

00:42:50,159 --> 00:42:53,294

[douglas_giles]: yep you froze for a second there

les on my end

1093

00:42:54,025 --> 00:42:59,036

[bob_gatty]: okay uh so just to say one

more time the name of your book just

1094

00:42:59,116 --> 00:42:59,818

[bob_gatty]: in case we lost

1095

00:42:59,619 --> 00:42:59,879

[douglas_giles]: yeah

1096

00:42:59,918 --> 00:42:59,958

[bob_gatty]: it

1097

00:43:00,561 --> 00:43:05,517

[douglas_giles]: sure so it's entitled what left and

right mean clarifying the political spectrum

1098

00:43:05,821 --> 00:43:09,907

[bob_gatty]: okay and it's by douglas giles and

1099

00:43:09,781 --> 00:43:10,525

[douglas_giles]: g i l s

1100

00:43:10,649 --> 00:43:15,076

[bob_gatty]: g l s and so douglas we

thank you for being with us today on

1101

00:43:15,677 --> 00:43:19,164

[bob_gatty]: leaning to the left i'll be for

i go tell me a little bit about

1102

00:43:19,042 --> 00:43:19,509

[douglas_giles]: hm

1103

00:43:19,204 --> 00:43:21,109

[bob_gatty]: your podcast i didn't know that you

had one

1104

00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:30,353

[douglas_giles]: yeah in the podcast insert philosophy here

i do two types of subjects one is

1105

00:43:30,473 --> 00:43:31,054

[douglas_giles]: looking at

1106

00:43:31,410 --> 00:43:31,651

[bob_gatty]: yeah

1107

00:43:31,795 --> 00:43:33,819

[douglas_giles]: philosophers and their ideas in the past

1108

00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:34,383

[bob_gatty]: uh

1109

00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,926

[douglas_giles]: and another is trying to

1110

00:43:38,220 --> 00:43:38,487

[bob_gatty]: yeah

1111

00:43:38,319 --> 00:43:39,420

[douglas_giles]: apply philosophy

1112

00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:40,020

[bob_gatty]: oh

1113

00:43:39,701 --> 00:43:45,471

[douglas_giles]: to real life as i like to

put it because zecatemia sometimes it's just playing

1114

00:43:45,531 --> 00:43:46,312

[douglas_giles]: not real life

1115

00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:47,036

[bob_gatty]: uh

1116

00:43:47,113 --> 00:43:47,294

[douglas_giles]: but

1117

00:43:47,749 --> 00:43:47,790

[bob_gatty]: uh

1118

00:43:48,776 --> 00:43:57,292

[douglas_giles]: like my my most and episode was

just talking about plato's theory of perception and

1119

00:43:57,733 --> 00:44:05,055

[douglas_giles]: earlier than that i've talked about how

i left this was a episode from a

1120

00:44:05,095 --> 00:44:08,581

[douglas_giles]: few weeks ago i left the us

ten years ago i've never regretted it which

1121

00:44:08,681 --> 00:44:12,026

[douglas_giles]: i'm not anti american but i talk

about how

1122

00:44:11,851 --> 00:44:11,992

[bob_gatty]: ah

1123

00:44:12,247 --> 00:44:18,597

[douglas_giles]: much leave the united states and living

in multiple countries in europe has altered me

1124

00:44:18,798 --> 00:44:20,881

[douglas_giles]: as a person and so i talk

1125

00:44:20,911 --> 00:44:21,073

[bob_gatty]: yes

1126

00:44:21,061 --> 00:44:26,490

[douglas_giles]: i had an episode about the philosophical

meanings of queen eliza if dying what what

1127

00:44:26,530 --> 00:44:30,774

[douglas_giles]: does that really mean how you think

about that what's wrong with education

1128

00:44:30,342 --> 00:44:30,443

[bob_gatty]: ah

1129

00:44:30,834 --> 00:44:35,570

[douglas_giles]: what is post modernism just on and

on so i try to to say this

1130

00:44:35,610 --> 00:44:39,619

[douglas_giles]: is what philosophy is really saying and

this is how we can use the ideas

1131

00:44:39,699 --> 00:44:40,722

[douglas_giles]: of philosophy to

1132

00:44:40,740 --> 00:44:41,125

[bob_gatty]: oh

1133

00:44:40,802 --> 00:44:43,127

[douglas_giles]: help us understand and enjoy our lives

more

1134

00:44:43,390 --> 00:44:44,937

[bob_gatty]: okay what's the name of your podcast

1135

00:44:46,209 --> 00:44:54,243

[douglas_giles]: insert philosophy here and so it's on

apple and google and spotify and all the

1136

00:44:54,323 --> 00:44:58,894

[douglas_giles]: various good podcast aggregate webs it's in

an apse

1137

00:44:59,040 --> 00:44:59,360

[bob_gatty]: okay

1138

00:44:59,095 --> 00:44:59,436

[douglas_giles]: out there

1139

00:44:59,420 --> 00:45:03,728

[bob_gatty]: we'll look at all this free advertising

you're getting not just for your book but

1140

00:45:03,828 --> 00:45:04,729

[bob_gatty]: for your podcast

1141

00:45:04,236 --> 00:45:06,321

[douglas_giles]: yeah yeah

1142

00:45:06,933 --> 00:45:11,540

[bob_gatty]: all right well thank you very much

douglas i enjoyed talking to you a lot

1143

00:45:11,660 --> 00:45:18,107

[bob_gatty]: i always like talking politics and this

was an especially encihteful discussion i thought so

1144

00:45:18,548 --> 00:45:19,309

[bob_gatty]: thank you my friend

1145

00:45:20,359 --> 00:45:21,802

[douglas_giles]: thank you so much sir take

1147

00:45:21,842 --> 00:45:21,963

[douglas_giles]: care

1148

00:45:22,580 --> 00:45:23,281

[bob_gatty]: hang on a second

1149

00:45:28,620 --> 00:45:28,823

[bob_gatty]: yeah