Ever wonder what it would be like to be really, really short? Do you think you’d feel discriminated against, or at a competitive disadvantage in life? If you’re a woman, do you believe you face unfair situations because of inequities that favor men?

Today we welcome Dr. Deborah J. Burris-Kitchen, a professor of criminology and department chair at Tennessee State University in Nashville, who has just published “Exposed,” a critique of American society, of love and social injustice, through the eyes of a sociologist.It’s a memoir of short stories and poetry that takes the reader on an expedition highlighting her struggle to find love and earn respect as she crashes against wave after wave of toxic masculinity.

Dr. Burris-Kitchen lays bare women’s victimization as they continue to fight for empowerment and equality and exposes what she says are the inequities of the American Caste system with a desire to provoke social change. Her previous publications include a book titled Short Rage: an autobiographical look at heightism in America.

She also has written extensively about racism and prisons, including “From Slavery to Prisons: A Historical Delineation of the Criminalization of African Americans”.

Q. Tell us a bit about your background and what you’ve been up to.Q. What are some of the topics covered in Exposed?Q. How can we transcend stereotypes based on height, race, poverty, transgender, etc.?

Q. How can women reclaim their life after being victims of sexual assault?

Q. What do you hope the reader will take away from reading Exposed?

Q. Your bio says you’re an activist who fights against violence, racism, exploitation, greed, and capitalism. Explain.

Q. What are your thoughts about the direction the Republicans are trying to take this country?

Q. What goes through your head when you see female politicians, like Marjorie Taylor Greene, suck up to Donald Trump and support the GOP’s right-wing social initiatives that are harmful to women and minorities?

Q. Where can people find your book?

Show Notes

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Show Transcript

Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Struggle for Love, Respect & Empowerment

[00:00:00] Bob Gatty: Today we welcome Dr. Deborah J. Burris Kitchen, a professor of criminology and department chair at Tennessee State University in Nashville, who's just published, Exposed: a Critique of American Society of Love and Social Injustice through the eyes of a sociologist. It's a memoir of short stories and poetry that takes a reader on an expedition highlighting her struggle to find love and earn respect as she crashes against wave after wave of toxic masculinity. Dr. Burris- Kitchen lays bare women's victimization as they continue to fight for empowerment and equality and exposes what she says are the inequities of the American caste system with a desire to provoke social change.

[00:00:54] Her previous publications include a book titled Short Rage: an Autographical Look at Heightism in America. She also has written extensively about racism in prisons, including from slavery to prisons, a historical delineation of the criminalization of African Americans.

[00:01:17] Deborah, thanks for joining us on Lead To the Left. Appreciate it. 

[00:01:21] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Thank you for having me.

[00:01:23] Bob Gatty: Everything good there in Nashville?

[00:01:26] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Everything is beautiful here in Nashville. Nashville. 

[00:01:29] Bob Gatty: Good, Hey, tell us a little bit about your background and what you've been up to, Deborah. 

[00:01:34] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Okay. I'm originally from Indiana and went to Indiana University before my undergrad and then to western Michigan.

[00:01:43] White earn white and sociology. Sociology. And an activist, horrible. My mother was quite the activist during the 60 in the civil rights. Era and was one of the, messages that kind of partnered a lot with, African American ministers to try to eradicate racism back then. And I just feel know, because of that background, I had to continue in distance of fighting, fighting justice and this new publication that we're here to talk about today, is just another way of man promote social justice and.

[00:02:25] Revisit my love, my writing.

[00:02:27] Bob Gatty: Okay. What are some of the topics that you cover in your book? Exposed Deborah? 

[00:02:35] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Police brutality, the American cast. People don't like to our system as being a cast system, but in reality, break it down. It is a cast system. Where you're born from is where you stay. Also domestic violence hate against people who are different from what's considered the norm.

[00:03:00] For example, people who are black and brown, people identify as gay or lesbian who are transgendering or like myself, probably challenged. It 4 8 8. Like I've, experienced a lot of called height. I feel like I've experienced a lot of disrespect and based on my size. So just dismissing people intreat because they don't the normal stereotype and just judging people because they look at certain way facing them as charact.

[00:03:40] Bob Gatty: Okay. The theism thing got me because I'm not very tall. I'm five five and I never thought about jism as a as a thing. . But I guess I guess for a lot of short people it, is especially if, they're really short like a lot shorter than me. So is that something that you deal with personally?

[00:04:15] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Yeah, just bother me as much as it used to be. When I was a lot younger and people assumed not only you guys short, that I didn't know much, but, cause I looked really young, they thought I, I was really naive and how can you be at college professor and teaching these classes and, you're little tiny thing.

[00:04:37] You're 20 . 

[00:04:38] Bob Gatty: So little tiny. How how, tall? I'm 

[00:04:42] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: four eight. You're what? Four 

[00:04:45] Bob Gatty: eight and eight. Four eight. Oh, okay. You know my mom was four 11 and three quarters , and she insisted. always that she was five feet tall. And then of course as she got older, she shrunk . And I guess we all do. I don't know.

[00:05:07] I haven't actually attempted to Check my height because I'm afraid that , maybe I did shrink and I don't want to know it. . 

[00:05:17] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Yeah. I used to insist four nine in Les when she came out. I said, ok, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take it. Yeah. 

[00:05:25] Bob Gatty: I think there are a lot of more. lot more serious isms than height ism, don't you say?

[00:05:31] Oh, yeah. They, certainly are. Yeah. Racism would be a good example. Absolutely. 100 hundred sexism would be another one. , definitely. And, I guess you, you're right about all that stuff, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Alright. How can we transcend stereotypes based on height, race, poverty, transgender, et cetera?

[00:06:00] How can we 

[00:06:01] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: do that? I think we need to start seeing people as individuals and not as stereotypes and get to, to know people. It's not easy I think it's easier for us to say, this is somebody cause they look like this. This is exactly who I think they are. , right? Like for example, yes, men, people think their date or a female think that they cannot be in a position of power force.

[00:06:35] They don't if they are. . But I think we need to meet judging people. Get to know, who, know who are as individuals. Find their hard soul what they're passionate about. Get to know people. When I used to teach race and ethnic relations, California, my students would be like I said how many Asians?

[00:07:01] I know 1, 1, 1 that Asian no. So then why would you assume every Asians like that one Asian? Because we have these stereotypes about people, but if you actually know people who are from that race or from that social class group and you get to know them as a person, you don't assume know, they're not like that.

[00:07:23] So why are you still assuming that people that you don't know that fit those physical charact. Are like that. Yeah. Are those stereotypes? 

[00:07:33] Bob Gatty: Okay. Now what about women? How can women reclaim their life after being victims of sexual assault? You, sent me that as a question you would like to ask and it opened the other question in my mind.

[00:07:50] Did you ever experience that kind of thing? And if you did, how did you deal? . 

[00:07:56] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Yeah. The the second chapter in my book is really diving into toxic masculinity and domestic violence and physical abuse of women by men. And I was personally a victim of rape, so one of the stories that I wrote was about my own experience of being raped.

[00:08:15] Okay. And what, how I dealt with it was I just kept quiet about it. I didn't share that experience with anybody. Okay. Except for someone I was dating at the time who, blamed me for the rape. So of course that relationship ended very quickly. But so I felt like he was the only one I told that story to.

[00:08:39] So I never shared it after that. Yeah. Until this. . This was my first really time of putting it out there. This happened to me right in the poem about it. But I think it's very important for women to reclaim their lives by telling their stories. Because the more women tell their stories about being sexually abused, the more people will understand the gravity of being sexually abused.

[00:09:02] And the more it lets other women know that they are not alone, if they're victim. . And if they don't have to be shamed, they don't have to be embarrassed, they don't have to blame themselves. And they can put it out there and surround themselves with people that love them, that, that understand what they've been through, understand their victimization, and not have to hide.

[00:09:25] And if someone doesn't understand that and doesn't take you for who you are and judges you because of your victimization, then they don't need to be in your life anyway. I think by you in the story, you can reclaim yourself back and you're not hiding the part of yourself that you don't want anybody to know about because you feel that you were responsible for it.

[00:09:47] Bob Gatty: So why is it that women are so reluctant to come out and, tell their story, especially to the cops? . 

[00:10:02] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Yeah. It's a whole blaming the victim culture. I think that pushes women into silence, especially I used to actually, in Southern California, I worked with the police department because back then there weren't a lot of female police officers.

[00:10:18] So I worked as a rape crisis counselor at the hospital when they did the rape kits. I would be with the women in the hospital room working with making. they were, they had someone with them when the rape kit was being done. Uhhuh, . And the when the police officers talk to them and when they go to court, it's a re, like they're, they have to re-talk about it all over again.

[00:10:45] And you have to convince people that you were raped. It's not the other way around. You have to convince them that your that you didn't do something wrong, but someone victimized. And I think that's what makes it really hard is just having to readdress the whole thing, have to relive it, and then you have to convince people that you were the victim.

[00:11:06] Do you know, 

[00:11:06] Bob Gatty: is there a difference between how women are treated in cases like that by female judges as opposed to male judges? I 

[00:11:16] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: really don't know because I haven't done enough research. I would hope that they would be more empathetic and more understanding. But I, can't answer that question to be honest with you, because I've never looked into that.

[00:11:30] That might be some interesting research though. 

[00:11:33] Bob Gatty: Yeah. It just struck me. You talk about toxic masculinity, is that how you phrase it? Yeah. Toxic. Toxic. Yeah. What, is. . 

[00:11:48] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: My definition of it is basically that we have a society that is so male-dominated and our power structure is, predominantly men, white males.

[00:12:01] Are usually in the positions of power more so than women. There's a balance, a power balance between men and women economically and politically and socially. And that leads to women being. poorly by men because they feel that they're privileged. It's like a, male privileged scenario where they, and I'm not saying all men I'm of walking on treading on thin water here,

[00:12:30] It's not no, you don't 

[00:12:31] Bob Gatty: have to be on thin 

[00:12:32] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: water. Uhuh, there's just, there's a culture of males are superior to females and males have certain rights that females don't have rights. even to the point where they think that they can dictate what a woman should do with their body. Yeah. Just like with this whole Rowe versus Wade thing.

[00:12:49] And why are men in positions of power sitting there, making decisions on how women what women can do with their own bodies? It 

[00:12:56] Bob Gatty: all, it always cracks me up when I see pictures of the proponents of Abortion restrictions. You have a picture of the Governor McMaster from South Carolina where I live, sign in that one of his hateful anti-abortion bills and in the background with him are all white men.

[00:13:23] Amazes me. It just amazes me. I just don't understand how it is that that these guys, these men and I have to say they're, Republicans. Let's just put it where it is. It's, Republicans, 99%. And they're standing there with their holier than thou looks on their faces.

[00:13:57] This guy signs this bill that takes away rights from from women and girls and it's not right. And I just don't understand. I don't understand that anymore than you do 

[00:14:10] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: probably. And then just a lot of times these politicians that talk about how much they love their family and they love women, next thing you know, things come out about how know, they have all.

[00:14:23] allegations against them for sexual assault and Right. All yeah, Like even Donald Trump all the accusations before he was even elected as president about what he did to women, physically assaulting women and, women still voted for him. Oh, 

[00:14:42] Bob Gatty: yeah. That's what, that just, that blows my mind.

[00:14:47] Yeah. That blows my mind. The same with the, Hispanic vote. I don't understand. . Here's a guy who wanted to put up a wall to keep people from coming into this country. People who were in, in, in dire straits in, their home country fleeing violence and, so on. And he puts up a fricking wall.

[00:15:15] To stop people from coming in. And, then you've got these women who are applauding that, I don't understand that. And not just women, but then, you've got Hispanics who were supporting this guy. I don't understand that for the life of me. I just really 

[00:15:33] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: don't. No, it doesn't make any sense to me either.

[00:15:37] Bob Gatty: Yeah. Yeah. Now what, do you hope the reader. Take away from your book, you spent a lot of time and effort working on this thing, right? What do you want people to walk 

[00:15:53] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: away with? I would hope the reader develops some empathy for the other. Better understand, better understands the negative impact that and harm of dismissing other people and hierarchically ranking other people has on other people.

[00:16:12] For example, women, poor people of color by constantly dismissing them and disregarding them and making legislative decisions, dictating their lives. hope that people understand that is very harmful and impactful and it leads to all kinds of things like police brutality, it leads to suicide, it leads to.

[00:16:39] Self-hatred, self-loathing. Of people who are in these categories that have been marginalized by people in positions of power. And it also leads to, I think, a culture of people who hate, who are disrespectful, who are jealous, who fear the other. And I just want people to get outta this book that we need to stop doing, that we need to live our lives as one.

[00:17:06] We are one people in this. and everything was promised to everyone in this country. Life, liberty the pursuit of happiness is for everyone. It's not just for people in positions of power and predominantly the white male. Their preaching hate all the time has led to just this chaotic system that doesn't, that kind of closes off freedom and certain rights to people who don't fit into.

[00:17:38] who they are. And if people can get that out of that outta my book and then actually have empathy and wanna fight for an equality and justice for everyone, then that's, my hope if I even get 10 people to say, Hey, I'm gonna go out and do something about this, or I'm wondering talk to somebody about 

[00:18:00] Bob Gatty: this.

[00:18:00] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good. I'm just wondering your bio says that you're an activist who fights against violence, racism, exploitation, greed and capitalism. You wanna explain that? That's a lot. You're fighting against . 

[00:18:22] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Yeah, it is. And I used to be very very active when I was younger. And then I tell my students that I give them the information in the classroom.

[00:18:33] and it's their turn to go out and fight the battles. Yeah. Cause I all for this . But I used to actually take busloads of students to downtown Los Angeles to protest police brutality cases. Oh yeah. And I used to walk the streets with signs just like at right next to everybody else.

[00:18:51] And yeah. And like I said earlier in the interview, I learned this kind of from watching my father this is what this is what we were taught to. something's not right. You speak out about it. You don't just let you're just as guilty if something immoral or wrong is going on.

[00:19:08] If you don't say anything silence is just as dangerous. Um, So I always feel like I have to say something. But right now what I mostly try to do is just in my classrooms, make sure that I challenge my students to think about the injustices to critically. and especially being at A H B C U when you watch their faces, when you talk about the disparities in the prison population between blacks and whites, and when you talk about their arrest rates and the arrest rates of African Americans is like 30, 35%, yet they make up 70% of the prison population.

[00:19:47] You have to bring up when you bring up stuff like this, I think it gets students to critically think about issues of racism and systemic racism in general and. economic disparities and how this leads to the marginalization and criminalization of people. Because we just buy into this is the way that it has to be.

[00:20:08] And of course, blacks are more dangerous than whites and you have to point out, no, it's not. And if they're get angry enough, then I tell them, okay, it's time for you to be the next. , what was her name? The one that did the inauguration, Amanda Gor. It's your turn to be the next Amanda Gorman and go out and and protest about this. This makes me mad, one in four of my brothers are locked up in prison. it's time to be angry. Yeah. So I try to always have my students think about, critically, think about the inequalities and the systemic racism that's existing in our.

[00:20:49] And encourage them to vote please go out and vote. 

[00:20:52] Bob Gatty: Sure. Now another of the hot button words in that sentence is greed. You talked about fighting against greed. My feeling has been for a long time that this country, everything that goes on in this country almost is based on greed.

[00:21:15] especially when it comes to political stuff. Do you agree with that? 

[00:21:19] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Absolutely. I, a lot of the political maneuvering is based on how can I get and keep my peace of pie? Yeah. We become such a narcissistic society and it's all about how can I get yeah. And we don't care about what that does to other people, Like it used to be a big deal when someone was a millionaire when I was younger. I remember it's wow, there's millionaires. Yeah, only get billionaires. What in the world do you need billions of dollars for? And we've got people with billions of dollars that just keep building on those billions.

[00:21:54] Why other people have absolutely nothing in a country that's so rich. And then we have rich people with those billions that try to figure out how to get up paying taxes so that they don't have to help the poor what's it gonna hurt them? To pay their fair share of taxes so we can feed school-aged kids.

[00:22:13] Yeah, people don't even wanna feed kids in, you know what, free lunch in school. Why would we do that? But why wouldn't we why wouldn't we feed? Yeah. Children who 

[00:22:22] Bob Gatty: need food. Exactly. And then the last word in that sentence is capitalism. So are you against capitalism? 

[00:22:31] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: What our capitalism looks.

[00:22:34] Yes. I'm more, I'm, I consider myself a democratic socialist. Okay. I really think we need to redistribute the money. And capitalism is based on a system where you're rewarded. You, supposedly produce something and you're not really the one physically producing it. You probably produce the idea.

[00:22:58] So you're not manually doing most of the labor. , but so you produce something and then all you sell that and you convince people that they need it. And you sell a product that not only do you con convince 'em that they need it, but then it's an a product that you have to throw away into, or three years that you have to, you've become addicted to this product. Look at this laptop, zoom. Can any of us live without cell phones, laptops, zoom. We all have to keep continuing to invest in these products that. Get us involved in using our needing and then we're, stuck in buying it and they, jack up the prices.

[00:23:40] They price gouges to the point where we have to take out loans with excessive interest to buy products that we need to survive. Yeah. Like cars, because we don't have decent transportation systems who can just go out and buy a $30,000 car. You have to go out and get a loan and pay 70% interest or whatever.

[00:24:00] And you're paying $60,000 for a $30,000 car. That should probably really be about 10,000. Yeah. It's just the whole, yeah. It's a mess. Capitalism is 

[00:24:08] Bob Gatty: a mess. If you can find a $30,000 car anymore Yeah. That's at least a new one. . You know for sure. You know what goes through your head when you see.

[00:24:23] Before I get to that, what are your thoughts about the direction the Republicans are trying to take this country right now? Oh my goodness. Come on. Let's go. Let 'em have it. . 

[00:24:37] Deborah Burris-Kitchen:

[00:24:37] really, think that they are just promoting so much fear and hate Yeah. Of anybody that is not rich.

[00:24:48] and predominantly male. I know there's some females, but they're buying into something they shouldn't be buying into. Yeah. So I'm saying rich white males that are really benefiting from the system, the way it works now, they're trying to get people to, to buy into it based on you gotta hate those other people because the reason you don't have anything, it's because of them.

[00:25:09] Yeah. You don't have anything you're living out here in a trailer, in rural t. because blacks are taking your jobs, or blacks are we're given equal rights to women, or we're doing we're doing all these things right. So you gotta hate on those people so that we can give you your country back.

[00:25:29] And it's Uhhuh. . Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And it's not, and it's not their country. They're trying to give their country back to them, but it's not their country. It's already been taken over by this group of people that just wants to continue. Take people's money, like continually exploit people and hoard all their wealth.

[00:25:50] I love people's old beat up cars that have Trump stickers on it. It's really? That have what? Those old beat up cars that look like they're on their last leg and they have a Trump, Donald Trump sticker. 

[00:26:02] Bob Gatty: Oh. Trump's I know the same thing. What do you think 

[00:26:05] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: he's gonna do for you?

[00:26:07] I, know. Yeah, 

[00:26:08] Bob Gatty: I know. I live in South Carolina. All right. Now I live in. Tourist area of Myrtle Beach. It's pretty I won't say wealthy, but the people around here are not hurting that much. But you go out in the sticks and there you find old, nasty looking broken down trailers, and they got Trump signs in.

[00:26:35] In the yard. Great 

[00:26:36] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Big ones probably with a Confederate flag next to it. 

[00:26:39] Bob Gatty: Oh yeah, Absolutely they do. And it just amazes me. I don't understand, I don't understand how people can vote against their own interests. They get sucked into this bullshit that that the Republican spew and they vote against their own interests all the time and amazes.

[00:27:01] And 

[00:27:01] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: the Republicans are trying to make it like a black, white. I think what happened when Trump, or one of the reasons Trump won was because there was this underlying group that was scared. Yeah. About people of color actually rising and getting their piece of the pie Yeah. In American society.

[00:27:20] And they saw Obama become president and Trump just filled these people's minds with hate. Yeah. we gotta hate 'em now. Cuz look, they're, they actually became a president of the United States, yeah. We've gotta, yeah. We gotta do something cuz it's not our country anymore.

[00:27:38] Yeah. Blacks are taking over. Women are taking over. Yeah. . 

[00:27:41] Bob Gatty: What, goes through your head when you see female politicians like Marjorie Taylor Green and some of those other wackos that the Republicans trot out when they suck up the Trump and, support the Republicans right wing social initiatives? What goes through. Your head when you see that? It 

[00:28:07] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: just makes me sick to my stomach.

[00:28:09] But then I also feel sorry for, I almost feel like they, she's gonna be in a straight jacket soon. She looks like she's just about ready to have to go to some kind of a 

[00:28:20] Bob Gatty: You mean mtg? 

[00:28:22] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Yeah. Yeah. She's gonna have to be put in a recovery center soon, because she's wound really, tight.

[00:28:32] But yeah Chuck's never gonna do anything to improve her life. . He's not interested in that. He might be interested in doing other things with her, but it's not going to be improving him, , because every decision he makes is about him. Everything he does. And everything he preaches is narcissistic, sexist, racist.

[00:28:54] He's just full. Oh 

[00:28:55] Bob Gatty: yeah. . 

[00:28:55] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Oh, yeah. It just, it's ugly. And for her to, support him is ugly. Like it just makes her ugly . And that's my, I'm sorry. 

[00:29:05] Bob Gatty: That's I'm, oh, no. wanted, I want you to do that. She's not the only one. 

[00:29:12] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Oh, I know. There's, yay. I know

[00:29:14] Bob Gatty: Oh man. Did you what did you think? Now this episode is going to air in a little while, but and so by the time people see this or hear this it'll be past the time of thinking about the. The state of the union message that Biden gave in February. But at, during that thing, if you recall Marjorie Taylor Green started yelling, liar some of these other wackos were chiming in and doing the same thing, right?

[00:29:58] Yeah. . Did you see that? 

[00:30:01] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: I did. That's what made me think they look like they're about ready to be taken off in a straight jacket, . There is. 

[00:30:08] Bob Gatty: Oh man. And then there was and then there was storming 

[00:30:12] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: the capitol. It's that same mentality when they were storming the capitol. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh 

[00:30:17] Bob Gatty: Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:18] I was really happy to hear that guy that put his feet up on. On Pelosi's staff member's desk got sent to the clinic for how, I don't know, six years or something? Yeah. And then that guy that went through the halls of the capitol carrying a Confederate flag, he got sentenced to three years for whatever he did.

[00:30:42] It's a good thing. I think these people need to, you. Wow. All right, so you got anything else you want to hit on in this little conversation? We're having . 

[00:30:54] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Not really. I just, oh. I just hope and pray that our country can, take a turn for the better. I just feel we're so bifurcated right now and there's so much hate and it just feels, it doesn't feel good.

[00:31:06] Yeah. It just does not feel good. There's so much ugliness and so much. 

[00:31:13] Bob Gatty: Let me ask you this. In, in, in the classes that you teach you're, teaching college kids, right? Sociology, 

[00:31:25] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: right? Criminal justice, criminology. Oh, yeah. 

[00:31:29] Bob Gatty: All right. What is the reaction that you're getting from your students to the point of views that you, points of view that you express?

[00:31:40] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: They, I think they get angry. I try to get 'em I try to get them angry about it. Yeah. About everything that's going on. And I think they are. And I think they're starting to vote and I think they're trying to understand the enormity of the problem. And I think some of them also, they don't know what to do.

[00:32:03] They feel like they're just stuck. Place where they're always gonna be seen as dangerous and violent and they don't even know what to do. They're like when we get pulled over by the police, what should we do? Because a lot of us run, because because it's a TSU is a H B C U A historically black college and university.

[00:32:26] So most of my students are black. Okay? When we talk about these issues, they get very vocal. all the pre police brutality that they see and they're like, what are we supposed to do? Yeah. You If we try to protest it, we get beat. If we say, yes, sir, and do what we're supposed to do, we get beat.

[00:32:45] If we try to run to protect ourselves, we get beat. Yeah. know, We don't know what to do anymore. And, why there's so much, and that's when we're talking about stereotypes, that's one of those dangers of stereotypes because, Hundreds of years we've worked to put the stereotype into place where black males are dangerous.

[00:33:05] It's to the point where it's just like the reaction of police officers, if they see a black person doing something, they're, they react much quicker with force than they do if it's a white suspect, like a white person can walk down the street. Oh, that was in, was that South Carolina? The young man that just walked down the street with the gun, the white man.

[00:33:28] or the white young man and didn't to do anything? 

[00:33:32] Bob Gatty: No, I don't think so. I'm not sure. Or might have been, 

[00:33:36] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: oh my God, where was that? But I and I was thinking to myself, if a black man walked down the street with a semi-automatic weapon, he would've been shot in two seconds. Yeah. But they let this kid walk down the street.

[00:33:50] Oh, 

[00:33:50] Bob Gatty: you're talking about that. That kid was in Michigan, wasn't it? , 

[00:33:54] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: was it Michigan? Yeah, I think it might have been. Yeah. But just walked down the street and started opening a fire. But he walked down the street with a gun in his hand. Yep. Or at least a minute and a half, two minutes before. Yeah. He started opening a fire and nobody did anything.

[00:34:06] They just watched him walk down the street. Yep. Yep. During one of the one of those Trump rallies or, yep. 

[00:34:13] Bob Gatty: Yeah. Okay. So, where can people find your book? 

[00:34:21] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Amazon.com. Okay, and I was gonna get the link and I forgot to, but if you just search my name, Deborah Jean Burris Kitchen. Okay. Under Amazon, it'll pull it up.

[00:34:33] Also, if you look under my webpage, www.deborahburriskitchen.com. Okay. There's a link to my book on my webpage as well. . 

[00:34:43] Bob Gatty: Okay. And it's Deborah, d e b o r a h, right? Kit? Burris, b u r i s. Kitchen. K i t c h e n.com. Okay, got it. All right hey, it's been great talking to you Deborah, and got any other words of wisdom before we sign off?

[00:35:07] Peace 

[00:35:08] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: and loved everybody. . It was . 

[00:35:10] Bob Gatty: All right. Oh, one other thing before we do go, I, this question was rolling around in my head while you were talking. The, kids that you teach, do they give you 

[00:35:23] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: hope? They do. They actually do. We've. Some really strong young chil or young adults that are coming out that I think have a, bright future and they're very politically motivated.

[00:35:40] Like I can see, I've seen over the, I've taught for almost 30 years and I've seen over the last 10 years or so, maybe less than 10, but the last decade I've seen a lot more students interested in doing something. to bring about change. Okay. I used to like a few a couple of decades ago or a decade or so ago, the students would just listen and I'd be like, I'm saying this stuff, and they don't act like it's a problem.

[00:36:10] Yeah. And always question what why when I say this, do they not get upset? . Yeah. And I'm seeing more of them get upset about the information I'm giving them. Okay. In the 

[00:36:20] Bob Gatty: classroom. All right. 

[00:36:21] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: I think they're tired of watching their brothers and sisters getting shot down the streets, 

[00:36:28] Bob Gatty: right?

[00:36:29] For sure. So you said you were four eight Does, is that a disadvantage as a college profess. ? 

[00:36:39] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Not, anymore when I first started it. What I mean, I'm gonna say maybe I just felt it was like you thought it was right. Yeah. But I really think it might have been just because I, it was, I didn't look like other college professors.

[00:36:52] I was very young. I was very small. And, this was back when most college professors were men, so here I am, this little blonde. Young looking faculty member and I, think it took a while for me to feel like I was getting any respect when I was presenting my knowledge to the students.

[00:37:12] Sure. But now that I'm older, it probably just doesn't bother me anymore. I don't care. . Okay. But also I think age gives you a certain. . As far as wisdom and knowledge is concerned. 

[00:37:25] Bob Gatty: Yeah. Okay. All right. So you said that guy that the, we just, anyway, you said that guy that that you were dating, who blamed you for being raped?

[00:37:41] You got rid of him right away. Okay. You got rid of him. . Did you replace him with anybody 

[00:37:46] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: or. Not for a long time, but yeah. He, had to go . 

[00:37:51] Bob Gatty: But you did eventually replace him, right? 

[00:37:54] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: Oh, yeah. I'm, I've been married for 33 years. Oh, 

[00:37:56] Bob Gatty: there you go, . Okay. All right. All right. Listen, thanks so much. I enjoyed talking to you.

[00:38:03] It's a pleasure. And this world needs more people like you. Thank you. That's what I gotta 

[00:38:08] Deborah Burris-Kitchen: say. Thank you. Appreciate that. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed being on your 

[00:38:12] 

Bob Gatty:

 program. All right. Thank you. I appreci. Hang on. Don't go away yet. Don't go away, okay

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