Corey Nathan, Talkin' Politics Without Killing Each Other

Show Transcript

Talkin' Politics Without Killing Each Other

[00:00:00] Bob Gatty: The way things are today with so many divisions among us, sometimes it seems like we can't even have a discussion about what's going on in the world without being at each other's throats. Today we're gonna talk about that. Stay with us. 

[00:00:16] Corey Nathan started out as a stockbroker by day while studying at a theater conservatory at night.

[00:00:23] Since then, he's been an entrepreneur with one foot in creative pursuits, having built such endeavors as a niche executive search firm, a theater and film ensemble, a residential and commercial service company, a 501c3 to help folks during the pandemic, and most recently, a new media content company. Now Corey's work is focused on collaborating with people across religious, political, and social divides to help understand and repair some of our culture's rankor. A growing audience has been enjoying the engaging, provocative, and fun conversations about these subjects. On the podcast, Corey hosts. It's called Get This Talking Politics and Religion Without Killing Each Other. Yeah I really like that. That's a reason why I invited the guy to be on this show cuz I just, cuz that's just how it is.

[00:01:29] You know what, I live in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, and when I first moved here I, I joined a I should tell this story because maybe a couple of these guys will be listening and they'll piss him off. But anyway, I decided to to join this senior softball team. Yeah, I'm a senior in case you can't tell by looking at me.

[00:01:54] Senior softball team. I love playing ball and so these guys were nice guys. But it was coming up on the election and Trump was running against Hillary Clinton, and I had a Clinton sign on my car, and this one big old southern boy came up to me. He put his arm on my shoulder and said, we don't like you.

[00:02:21] And I said, you don't. He said, no, cuz you like Hillary. And I said, Hey man, I'm just here to play ball. I'm not here to talk about politics. Or your buddy Trump. Yeah. And with that he stormed off and I didn't last very long with that group of people. Cuz it was just, too much. I don't know, racist talk stuff like that.

[00:02:53] One time a guy said, it was right after Trump was elected and some guy heard, I heard these two guys talk and one guy said you know what, we can now say whatever we want cuz Trump's president. And that had to do with their racist attitudes. So I, stopped playing with those guys. Anyway, I don't know why I started telling you that, but 

[00:03:17] Corey Nathan: No, Bob you, remind me of a story of this is something that's been happening for a long time and I'm sure you could attest to that.

[00:03:24] I, grew up in a very observant Jewish household, but I became a Christian in 2000. I started going to church. And I realized I wa it wasn't I, became a Christian based on these really deep theological philosophical convictions. But I realized when I started going to church, I wasn't joining a bunch of people who had necessarily the same theological convictions that I did.

[00:03:46] It was, it, that group of people was more primarily defined by these other factors, and it came up. It really it really started coming up when after nine 11 and we went into the, US went into Afghanistan, and then especially Iraq. And then in oh four there, this is similar to your story , I knew which way our church was going, in large part, and then one we went on Saturday nights.

[00:04:15] We also went on Sunday mornings. But anyway we, went to the Saturday night service and on Saturday night service I saw a Kerry-Edwards bumper sticker on one of the cars in the parking lot. It was big church, like it was it. People, about 2000, 3000 people total went over the course of the weekend, and I knew that was just such a minority position.

[00:04:34] And I had developed a nice rapport with the main pastor there, this guy named Tom Gibbons, who subsequently passed away. And he's new nuanced thinker and I had a great relationship with him and I, jokingly, I went up to him, I said, Hey, pastor Tom, did you see that? Bumper sticker in the parking lot.

[00:04:49] It's a Kerry-Edwards bumper sticker. And I was joking cuz he knew that I had purple points of view when it comes to this stuff. And, he said, Corey you're joking with me. But I've already received dozens of emails saying, pastor Tom, what are we gonna do about this? As if somebody voting for a democrat was sinfulness that, the church body had to address.

[00:05:11] It was like dire. And, I thought, man, So what, kind of delusion are we under that somebody couldn't possibly even think about voting for a Democrat? That's, when I knew that I was already ensconced in a bunch of conversations in the church about political issues and how to think through our theological convictions, and I knew that there was something amiss, but that's 2004. Man. Fast forward to 2023 and I can't say that things have gotten much better. 

[00:05:40] Bob Gatty: Oh, no, they've gotten worse at least in my opinion. I, just think that that it started to me, it started when Barack Obama was elected so many people with their anti- black attitudes hated the fact that we had a black president, and they then they began to look for every single way they could to denigrate the guy. And, Donald Trump was leading the charge with his birtherism bullshit and all that. And it's just gotten worse since then, I think. And the, fact that Trump then became president like this guy that I told you about, said that gave us permission to say whatever we want or do whatever we want.

[00:06:32] And it doesn't matter how hateful it is. And where are you located? Where did that happen? 

[00:06:39] Corey Nathan: I'm in Southern California, but I'm about 30 miles north of LA in a district California 27. So it's a very purple district. Our US House district was decided by 333 votes in 2020, the Republican won, but that's, that represents less than one 10th of 1% of the votes cast.

[00:06:57] Wow. So it's a very closely divided district. It's very dominated by Masters College, which is run by John MacArthur. I don't know if you've ever heard of him. He makes Ronald Reagan and, I dunno, I'm trying to think of a good comparison, but he's one of these like young earth creationist types when it comes to religion.

[00:07:15] Oh yeah. Six literal 24 hour days. And his politics he's, not doing, he's not availing himself well. When he asserts himself politically. He's, a, asserted himself as a quite a misogynist here in particular of late. But that's that's a very dominant he's a thought leader, if you will for, what that's worth in this valley.

[00:07:37] But politically, we have a lot of folks who work in the industry, in the entertainment industry. I do think it's a very diverse, very purple district. But republicans specifically nowadays, MAGA Republicans are the loudest voices in this district, despite the fact that they're not.

[00:07:57] They're not they're a plurality if that they're, certainly not a, vast majority. 

[00:08:03] Bob Gatty: Yeah. That's the way it is here in, I live in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, and it's, just total deep red and I go to this barber shop. I like local places. I don't like chains.

[00:08:19] And, so I go to this barber shop, it's called The Bearded Stag. And, it's all for guys. And it's a nice place. I like going there. They, I like the woman that cuts my hair and all that, but I was sitting in a chair waiting for my turn and I noticed there was a sticker on the side of the little refrigerator that they have there.

[00:08:45] And the sticker was a Trump 2024 sticker and I thought to myself, you know what? I should just get up and walk out of this place, but I didn't because I don't wanna hold everybody there responsible. And not only that, can't we have, can't we get along? Why, should the fact that the owner of that barbershop is a Republican that likes Donald Trump?

[00:09:19] Why should that get in the way of me getting a haircut with a woman that does a good job that I enjoy having cut my hair? 

[00:09:27] Corey Nathan: No I, think you're absolutely right. And, I think we tend to do that where we'll see one symbol like a, Trump sticker or somebody did that to you with your bumper sticker in 2016, and then we'll chain a set of thoughts and assumptions about that person.

[00:09:43] I don't wanna. I don't wanna do that. I wanna catch myself when I do that. And for me, like in, in in our neighborhood, honestly, like this is my own prejudice but it's it's, there's a reason for it. It's when I see a big old pickup truck with a big old flag wave American flag waving from it.

[00:10:00] I, already have these other assumptions. They're fair assumptions, yeah. But assumptions nonetheless. And I want to catch myself doing that because I, my disposition now is I want to, give somebody every, opportunity to take an off-ramp, if they are in the MAGA world, if they are in that 2020 election stolen thing.

[00:10:25] I want to, I wanna give every opportunity for an off-ramp to that person. I also wanna give every opportunity to include so that I can get into the conversation. Because if a guy like me isn't in a conversation with a guy like that, he stays. In his epistemological bubble. The only hope that we have is, relational icebreaking, relational, chipping away at those assumptions, chipping away at those prejudices, chipping away at the, this side, that side kind of mentality, this war-like mentality.

[00:10:56] So I wanna be in those conversations and 

[00:10:59] Bob Gatty: that's the reason you started this podcast. 

[00:11:02] Corey Nathan: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've been having these conversations for years and years. As you can imagine on the religious front. I had to have a really tough conversation with people in my family, close friends about why I got a kid who grew up in a orthodox.

[00:11:14] We went to an orthodox synagogue, very observant Jewish family. Why I was a Christian all of a sudden, and it was, they were hard conversations cuz it was the guys who were wearing crosses on their shields that were swinging swords and beheading my ancestors those were hard conversations.

[00:11:31] But then when I went into the church, I realized the church was primarily, and we had mentioned this already, the church was more primarily defined by political and social positions of a vast majority of the people that I was going to church with, not by theological convictions. And the reason I say that is because when it came to it, and we came across a piece of scripture that was at odds with political, the majority of political preferences in that church community. We would ignore those pieces of scripture. We would try to piece to get, do mental gymnastics to ignore it and, dismiss it as opposed to deal with scripture and say, oh, wait a second.

[00:12:08] There is actually a political position that I could support that's not orthodox to my political party whether it was Republican or, now it's it's, a MAGAfied version of it. So I, wanted to be in those conversations and then fast forward to I discovered this pod, the podcast medium.

[00:12:28] I've been producing some theater and some film over the years, and I love this medium. I thought this podcasting was a great place to have some of these conversations and try to redeem it in a way because it's been hijacked. These conversations, these subjects have been hijacked, not by a vast majority of us who are somewhere in the middle.

[00:12:47] Not, all of us are extremists, but the conversations have been dominated by extremists and what I call screamers. So I say, you know what, let's redeem some of these conversations for folks. And you and I, Bob probably disagree on, a number of issues. Maybe we disagree on certain politicians.

[00:13:03] That's, my guess. But I'm guessing that we could have a, an intelligent, principled conversation about issues and really dive into it without screaming each other, without want throw mashed potatoes of each other's throats. I 

[00:13:16] Bob Gatty: think you're probably right. I named my podcast Lean To the Left.

[00:13:21] There's important word there, lean. And, that's just because I do, I tilt a little bit to the progressive side, but I am not a hardcore libtard.

[00:13:37] Yeah. Yeah. As the Trumpers would say. So I, sometimes I think, man, I should have not used that title. But anyway it, is what it is. Here I am, but what I do is I try to bring people on my program to talk about important social issues and that are important to everybody, not just republicans or Democrats and issues like climate change, like racism, like fairness, like equality and on. And, so that's where I'm coming from with my show and yeah. Yeah. 

[00:14:17] Corey Nathan: And 

[00:14:17] Bob Gatty: no, it's good to, I feel like it, it makes a contribution. I hope it does. 

[00:14:22] Corey Nathan: Yeah. No, it's good to have these conversations and, explore these issues.

[00:14:25] I think it's, also good, the fact that you and I are talking, I think it's also good to take a half step outside of a, lot of times we, have this tendency to stay within our bubble right? To, talk to folks that can only affirm what, we already believe and give us more language or more ammunition for those positions that we are, we've already arrived at, as opposed to gathering information that might challenge what we already believe.

[00:14:50] That might at least give a little bit more nuance to certain positions that we hold. So I give you a lot of credit for the lean part .

[00:14:57] Bob Gatty: That seems to be the way it is on social media. We, gravitate towards people who agree with our positions on things. And so you're talking to the choir all the time.

[00:15:13] You're, really not reaching out and expanding your influence in any way. If you just focus on let's say Facebook groups that agree with your. Point of view, right? 

[00:15:29] Corey Nathan: Yeah. I'm gonna inject a little bit of God here and this is what I mean. We could joke and we could say if everybody just agreed with me, the world would be a much better place.

[00:15:38] But here's, where God enters a picture. Even I have two like F foundational beliefs, two things that I believe empirically, verifiably true to myself, but I can't empirically verify to anybody else. And those two things are, there is a God. And number two, what I believe even more firmly than number one is I ain't God.

[00:16:00] I'm not God, because I know what an asshole I am. Like in my heart of hearts I, am just a complete asshole, right? So the truth is, okay, we can debate whether there is a God, I could prove to you that I am not God. If you knew what thoughts were going on in my head so the truth is, if everybody agreed with me, the world wouldn't be a better place.

[00:16:19] I'm glad that there are much better people in the world than me, that 

[00:16:23] Bob Gatty: I am not gonna get into that. Is there a God conversation or not? I agree. Lemme just tell you this, man. You, were raised in an Orthodox Jewish family. I was raised in a, I was raised in a conservative fundamentalist family where my dad was a former Catholic who became a preacher.

[00:16:48] Corey Nathan: Oh, wow. 

[00:16:49] Bob Gatty: Yeah. And my mother used to forbid me to watch television when I was a, small child which she called the box of sin. Okay. We were not allowed to dance. We weren't allowed to do any kind of dancing whether it was slow dance Yeah. Or, the jitterbug or anything .That was sinful. And I, grew up in a situation where my dad was running special evangelical services where he'd bring in these guest pastors, some of whom were pretty big names and others were just yokels who wanted to be and but they were all up there doing their hell fire examination stuff.

[00:17:50] And it turned me to the point where I just can't deal with it anymore. 

[00:17:55] Corey Nathan: Yeah. So you, had the, Jerry Falwells and the Jimmy Swaggart and the, oh 

[00:18:01] Bob Gatty: man, I'm telling you what. And we used to have to go into these revival services and my brother and I and be Mr.

[00:18:13] Goody, goody two shoes and. We were not. Yeah. And so anyway such as that. So I just like the idea that we could talk about this kind of stuff without killing each other. 

[00:18:30] Corey Nathan: Yeah that's a good start, right?

[00:18:32] Bob Gatty: Yeah. Oh man. So tell me, what do you think some of the factors are that are exacerbating the rancor that causes so much angst and even anger among people today?

[00:18:45] Corey Nathan: Yeah, man, we could spend a lot of time just trying to figure that out. I think that there are a few major factors. One is, we've already touched upon it, it's folks that are staying inside their bubble, whether it's on social media or broadcast media. We have a tendency... steve Hayes, who's one of the founders and is the c e o of the dispatch.

[00:19:10] I heard him in an interview from 2019 prior to when they set, up the that new media platform, and he was talking about that the reality of the news business is that already this four years ago already, there was so much incentive for contemporary news, and I put that in quotes, news outlets to be in the affirmation business more so than the information business.

[00:19:36] And he was pressured because we saw some of the filings from this case, this big Dominion versus Fox News case where they explicitly were having those conversations. Hey we, know what we're saying, that this is bullshit. But yet it's pissing off our audience, so we better reverse course and feed them what they want.

[00:19:54] So I think that's a problem and it's partly on us. It's partly on me as an individual consumer of news, number one, to develop better discernment about where I'm getting my news. If there is folks who just blanketly say, oh, I can't read anything in the Washington Post I'm gonna tell you that look man, at the very least, there's some good reporters in there. If you're not reading Robert Costa and saying that this is a serious journalist, then that's on you. It's not really on the Washington Post. If there's, if you can't read, George Will, Kathleen Parker from your neck of the woods and say that they're serious commentary, serious opinionator in there, then that's on you the Maggie Haberman in the New York Times. There, there was a time when I was watching Fox News on Sunday because Chris Wallace is a serious journalist. I'm having a hard time finding some serious journalists on there now. But the fact that they fired Dan Bongino, they fired Tucker Carlson, I think is a step in the right direction. And we do know that there are some canaries in the coal mine there that are at least trying to say, Hey, this is true and we need to call the election when Chris Dyal was there, for example running the news, the political news division.

[00:21:05] So it's partly that's part of the problem is we're looking for affirmation rather than information, but it's on us. There is good, there are good journalists out there, there is good information out there. And I do think there's a turning of the tide. I do think there are some independent media outlets like the dispatch or like the bull work where there's good news, there's good information, there's good there's more nuanced opinion, but it's on us to seek that out and to inform ourselves a little bit better, to nurture our, intellect a little bit and to nurture our curiosity.

[00:21:39] If, all of us could have maybe not radical curiosity, but just a little bit of curiosity, I think that would go a long way. And then the other thing is, again, our own prejudices. Getting outside of our bubbles. Taking some time to, to be among folks that have different opinions than we do, different preferences than we do, who vote differently than we do, go to different churches or don't go to church at all than we do.

[00:22:04] And and develop relationships with them. I think that if we are only in conversations that are transactional where we're trying to get into a debate, prove the person wrong, launch some perfectly shaped rhetorical grenade. And that's all we're doing. We're not getting anywhere, we're not doing anything.

[00:22:23] But if we have an ounce of curiosity and, huh, that's interesting. Why do you think that? Have a little bit of that when we're talking to somebody that is different than us. I think that'll go a long way too. But it's not gonna happen with the snap of a finger and we're gonna change the whole world. It only happens in small degrees, one person, one conversation at a time.

[00:22:41] So those are a couple of the things I think are, causing it. But a couple things that I think we can do to, help fix it. 

[00:22:49] Bob Gatty: I think that you make some very good points. So you do think that it's possible to work through these differences and they have better conversations and maybe even nurture relationships across our differences.

[00:23:03] Corey Nathan: I do. I do. But it's I, think if we set our expectations properly, I think it's it's more realistic. And what I mean is a lot of us get frustrated that, oh man, things are just terrible now and I can't do anything about it. And then even getting into it, if you do get into a random conversation once a year and, you walk away incredibly frustrated.

[00:23:25] Oh, that person still wants to vote for Trump in 2024. You're gonna set yourself up for disappointment. But if your goal is to nurture a relationship as opposed to win a conversation, win a debate, win a contest. You, if your goal is to nurture a relationship, and it's hard sometimes because sometimes you walk away thinking, man, that person is just I, don't like that person. They hold views that are so abhorrent to me. I, it's hard for me. But that's when our own virtues are tested. When we love the unlovable, or at least the unlikable, that's when our, not when it's somebody's easy to like and attractive in all kinds of ways.

[00:24:05] That's not when our virtues are tested, when our virtues of generosity and grace kick in is when we're around folks that are harder to like, like me .So if, our goal is, to nurture that relationship and, not to convince that person to to, go from vote, wanting to vote for Trump, to vote for Biden in one conversation.

[00:24:27] Not even on a particular issue, but maybe just one degree. Maybe just if you give them one moment of pause to say, huh. I never thought of it that way. I, so if that's my goal. Yeah. 

[00:24:38] Bob Gatty: Tell me this. There's this guy here in this neighborhood where I live by the way, my neighborhood is called The Farm.

[00:24:48] Okay. What a what? A what an oxymoron that is, man, there's nothing but a bunch of anthill houses, probably, I don't know. Few hundred and I feel like I live in a king anthill in this place. Any, anyway that's, another story. There's this guy, he's got this big black heavy duty pickup truck and he puts like you were talking about, he puts this great big, huge American flag in the back.

[00:25:19] Yeah. So it's always there. He's also got on the side of his door a big sign that it's a, let's go, Brandon. 

[00:25:35] Corey Nathan: I coulda, I knew you were gonna say that. I knew you were gonna say it. Let's go Brandon son. 

[00:25:38] Bob Gatty: Yeah. And he is got big stickers on the back tailgate. Let's go Brandon. And I see him all the time in my neighborhood, and I get so tempted to stop him and say something to him about what an asshole is, but then I go, I can't do that.

[00:25:58] Yeah, I can't do that. That's the wrong thing to do. Yeah. 

[00:26:03] Corey Nathan: So I've had conversations. It's so disgusting to me. I know. I've had conversations with people just like that, exact profile. And one, one recent one I had wa it was I was being a little bit of a, my father would call it Tiko Mak.

[00:26:20] He really meant Sir Maka or like a troublemaker. Troublemaker. I was being a little bit of a troublemaker, and it was after I forget which Which thing passed it, it was either bipartisan infrastructure or the thing that Joe Manchin pushed through about the Medicare and some inflation oriented stuff.

[00:26:39] Some, energy stuff. It was after one big piece of Legisla? No, It was the gun legislation that was led by what's his name? Cornin from Texas. Okay. Yeah, on mental health and a couple other things in that big piece of legislation. And I go, yeah, let's go Brandon. And, it was clear that he hadn't had any conversations outside of his bubble cuz he said one of the things that he said in the conversation was, you couldn't possibly believe that 80 million people actually voted for Joe Biden.

[00:27:08] What has the guy done? I said Actually, it's not a coincidence that he's gotten a lot done, but it's all been bipartisan or bipartisan leading Coron, a Republican center leading negotiations for, the gun legislation. Sure. The most conservative Democrat in the Senate leading negotiations on the the inflation.

[00:27:28] Which didn't really have to do with inflation, but there were some good things in that bill or, the the the Infrastructure Act, the chips Act, they've all been bipartisan pieces of legislation. This guy hadn't even heard it. All he heard about was, oh, this guy's just, he's he's just walking around the White House in his underwear.

[00:27:45] He, like, dude, that's because all you're listening to is affirming stuff in this little circle of yours. Yeah. Let's get outside of it and actually have a conversation. I don't know. It, is hard. I'll give you one, one more story and then I'll shut up. So something outside of the political sphere I had we aired a show about a month ago.

[00:28:06] You might have heard of this guy, Daryl Davis. Brilliant piano player. Okay. And but Daryl has over the course of his life has be, he's an African American dude. Okay. Over the course of his life, he's befriended almost 200 KKK members, and it started with a a grand wizard approaching him at one of his shows and saying, Hey, man I, don't know you, but I something along the lines of, I, I'm not, I don't wanna be around the see you, but I like your music.

[00:28:34] Your, music is good music. I guess he was playing a country show or something like that because he plays all day. He plays jazz and blues and Country and Darryl Darrel's yeah, all right, that's cool. Let's get a beer. Grand Weirds is don't you know who the hell I am? He's yeah, let's get a beer.

[00:28:49] They got a beer. They became friends and he's had literally almost 200 four Now, former KKK members renounce their beliefs in the KKK and it all started with, Hey man, let's go grab a beer, yeah, that's it. It's, just overcoming that and I don't know, finding something not, trying to win a debate right outta the gate cuz you have no context, no frame of reference other than your differences.

[00:29:13] But if you grab a beer and, I don't know, talk about usc South Carolina, Clemson, some, something, finding something some other point of context is a commonality. 

[00:29:25] Bob Gatty: What are you supposed to do when you get in a situation where, The conversation turns to, gun violence. Now, I don't know what your position is on guns and, all that we're in a situation where we've got all these people running around with assault rifles and most of them that are starting these, doing these mass shootings, happen to be white males.

[00:29:57] And, there's always, there are always calls for some form of gun restrictions or control of some sort to reduce the number of guns that are out there or to restrict who can obtain them, when they can obtain them, how they can obtain them, and all of that. So you have, you get into a discussion with somebody and, it becomes rancorous.

[00:30:30] Yeah. How are you supposed to deal with that when you've got a you've got hard, cold facts that you're looking at and they're looking at their set of hard, cold facts and, there's no way for them to to come together. How do you deal with that? 

[00:30:49] Corey Nathan: So the, question is a hard one. And I would pose it cuz I have friends who are strong gun rights activists. Yeah. I also have a lot of friends who are very strong in the stronger gun legislation movement moms for, action. Gun action. I forgot what the name of the organization is off the top of my head. I'm sorry.

[00:31:13] But's, it's Moms for Moms. Yeah. So I, know folks in both camps, they're firmly entrenched in both camps, right? So my question to, both is if, let's say Democrats won. Both houses of Congress, 60 seats in the Senate. They had the they, they had the executive office president and somehow were able to win back a majority in the Supreme Court.

[00:31:44] O over time appoint enough judges where they had the majority in the, so 5, 4, 6 3 in, the Supreme Court, let's say. That was a case and there was serious discussion about develop writing some legislation to really implement some strong gun legislation reform to safer streets, safer communities.

[00:32:07] Would we have any folks who are gun rights activists in the room to have that conversation, or would it be all driven by the, Most anti-gun, anti second Amendment, like w would it all be driven by the most Orthodox people in, in, in that one camp? And the same question goes for folks who are card carrying members of the nra.

[00:32:36] If you held that you know that there's six three majority currently in the Supreme Court. They had both houses of Congress for a second there between 20 2017 and 2019. They had the the executive branch. If, you were w would you enter into a conversation and allow some folks for moms for, action in that room?

[00:33:01] If we can do, because I believe that a vast majority of us aren't a hundred percent one way or the other. I believe that a vast, and it goes for, other issues too. Abortion, for example. Yes, absolutely. Would can we have a larger conversation with, let's get, there's somebody cited a stat that, said 40 to 42% of us are, really independence.

[00:33:25] And I believe that's stat. Whether we lean a little bit left or lean a little bit. 42% are, independence. So can we have the conversation there or is it being driven by the Marjorie freaking Taylor Greens of the world? Yeah. She sees somebody like me. For goodness sake she sees Pete Weiner as an enemy.

[00:33:46] She sees people who are longtime conservatives, longtime soldiers in, the conservative movement as, flat out enemies. And I say take, that space back. But we have to have the hard conversation. We have to be willing to disagree. We have to also be willing to admit to ourselves do you wanna make some progress or do you want to be right?

[00:34:10] I had a conversation with Pete Dominic a couple weeks ago, and it was clear to me that it was more important for him to be right. To actually make some progress on this stuff. It was more important for him to beat up on folks that are slightly outside of his worldview than it was for him to have a conversation with somebody who he disagrees with.

[00:34:29] It was more important to him to, address the, dumbest versions of arguments that he's heard that, he disagrees with as opposed to do what, somebody like oh, what's his name? He's a great columnist in the Washington Post ej Dion, what EJ Dion does and why he's such a great thinker is that he engages the best arguments from another side of the argument not the nutcracker arguments.

[00:34:56] He doesn't look for nuts and try to crack them down. So I think if we're able to do that and engage the best arguments that, are op, oppose us that's a much more productive way of going about it. 

[00:35:08] Bob Gatty: Yeah. You brought up abortion and that's certainly one of the hot button areas that divide people. So is this book banning stuff in, in in the critical race theory stuff? Even, climate change, corey? Yeah. We still have people who, I was in a conversation the other day with somebody. They were saying what about climate change? Where's, where is climate? Where's global warming? I don't see global warming. And, I think they were being facetious a little bit just because it was a chilly day here, but nevertheless There still are people out there who just want to keep denying what's really as plain as and nose on your face that you know this, that we're in trouble with our, the environment.

[00:36:00] Corey Nathan: Yeah. There, there are some arguments. Listen, I that you can argue with climate change. Or tragically a lot of people would, be COVID deniers. Yeah. You could argue with science, but it's like arguing against gravity. At the end of the day, gravity is gonna win, that's right. That's right. And sometimes it's gonna be a more, much more tragic end of that debate. I, literally, I lost three friends who were covid deniers and I, had this conversation with them about gravity. I said, listen man, you can argue against the, existence of gravity all you want, but gravity's gonna win that debate, and I hope you figure it out before you hit your head. Go, going down. Yeah. Literally three friends I lost because they, didn't want to take the vaccine. They didn't believe covid was a real thing. I don't know. Darwin had some points and, I hope people that I care about don't really argue don't, get so caught up into that bubble that we're talking about, that it costs them life.

[00:37:02] But there's other things, to your point about climate change that affects us all. I think it takes us all to reckon with the reality of what's happening on our planet, right? Reckon with the reality of what we're doing, we're each doing to contribute to it and all take a little part in trying to quit exacerbating the problem, at the very least, if not, help to slow down the pace of, climate change.

[00:37:29] Help to perhaps reverse it. I don't know It's not an area of expertise of mine, but it, falls under that larger umbrella of, look, man you, can argue with some scientific facts all you want, but at the end of the day, gravity's gonna win out. 

[00:37:44] Bob Gatty: Now. You also bring religion into the discussion on your podcast, and we've talked about that a little bit, already.

[00:37:51] Yeah. Do you believe the religious right is responsible for fostering many of the divisions that exist today in our society 

[00:38:01] Corey Nathan: for fostering. 

[00:38:03] Bob Gatty: Or don't you wanna, maybe you don't wanna point fingers. I don't know. 

[00:38:06] Corey Nathan: No I'll, point fainting fingers. I already talked about Johnny Mac. 

[00:38:09] So it's interesting because I started recognizing a lot of these things, right when I became a Christian, that political and social beliefs were primary factors, primary identifiers, right? They believed in their political and social preferences and prejudices more so than scripture itself. So that has been a defining quality of American evangelicalism for years.

[00:38:35] Certainly since before I became a Christian. I think there is a way that the Christian right is now explicitly more defined by these social and political positions. There's really no shaking it. Trump was clarifying. The, era of Trump has been very clarifying because years past you, you referred to 2008 a figure like Sarah Palin you, wouldn't necessarily call her subtle, but the dividing line and folks who embraced Sarah Palin, it wasn't quite as obvious. To me it was obvious. I was interested in the idea of an executive, a state executive, a governor who bucked her own party. That was the introduction of Sarah Palin, and then she opened her mouth. And literally within 30 seconds, I knew what she was all about and who she was appealing to and she was effective at appealing to people.

[00:39:29] This, distraction of I think part of the problem is that we get distracted by what I'll refer to as oppositional politics. We know who is against us. We know who we are, as defined by who we are against and who's against us, and we need to fight against them. So when that becomes the true north, the compass that we're looking at, that we need to be as, I'm said, in his 2010 campaign, one of his main lines was he's fighting for us.

[00:40:01] Who's us and who's them and what is he fighting for? He's not fighting for anything. He's just fighting them, and them is loosely defined as anybody who's outside of the circle of us and the US is defined only by who's voting for Trump and who's not, who's for Trump, who's maga, who's wearing a red hat and who's not.

[00:40:17] Yeah I think it's, I don't know if it's the cause of it the, Christian, they're giving succor too, and there's not enough voices within the Christian right. But look, if you look at figures like Dr. Russell Moore, he led the E R L C, the ethics commission within the Southern Baptist Convention.

[00:40:38] And he was an early critic of Donald Trump and look what it cost him. He can no longer affiliate with the Southern Baptist Convention. Beth Moore, same thing. There are so many figures, but they're isolated individuals, and they became isolated not just because of Trump, but because they dared to say, Hey, this sexual predation problem, the sexual abuse that's running rampant within leading figures in the Southern Baptist convention, this is a bad thing and we need to address it.

[00:41:06] No, they got booted out like Trump. Trump was bad enough. And that was the beginning of the division between somebody like Ru, Dr. Moore. But how dare he say that leading figures shouldn't be sexually abusing using their positions of authority. To, carry out rampant sexual abuse.

[00:41:25] There, there's lots of problems, man. We could have we, not just an episode about this. We could have a series about this alone. 

[00:41:31] Bob Gatty: Yeah, we could. We, could. What do you think of the Democrats decision to wrap Biden in the freedom flag? Do you know what I'm talking about? 

[00:41:45] Corey Nathan: No, what do you mean?

[00:41:46] Bob Gatty: I mean his his announcement the other day chastised the Republicans for standing in the way of individual personal freedom. And he used, all the things that were going on with with abortion and guns and, people being killed in mass shootings and so on and so forth to illustrate what he was talking about.

[00:42:10] We have Biden and the Democrats trying to take away from the Republicans the freedom platform. 

[00:42:17] Corey Nathan: I think it's brilliant because it pisses me off that certain words have been hijacked. Yeah. The word patriot has been hijacked. The word freedom has been hijacked. The American flag has been hijacked.

[00:42:28] Evangelical has been hijacked by folks who aren't evangelical, who don't care about freedom, who don't care about real patriotism. I think it's brilliant for him to take that back. Because listen, you get somebody like me and I'll say conservatism, is another word that's been hijacked.

[00:42:45] You know what I was most persuaded by? I read some early articles of Bill Crystal's dad, Irving Crystal. He, was, he's sometimes referred to as the godfather of the modern conservative movement. And that's real conservatism, but it's classical liberalism. And, that's where a lot of folks, a lot of folks could probably agree or, a burki type conservatism, something that's been around, arguably, for hundreds of years.

[00:43:09] So if as a conservative, as somebody who's, persuaded by Irving Crystal, that type of conservative or, a Jack Kemp type of conservatism, more in more recent history, I believe that's what somebody like Governor DeSantis is doing down in Florida is not conservative at all. I'm a small business conservative, so for him to use the levers of, government to, to exact retribution on a company who has the temerity to say, oh, we support our employees, even our L G B T Q employees.

[00:43:42] Exactly. That's not conservative at all to go into to a teacher's classroom and say, you can't talk about racism, cuz it might make some, students feel uncomfortable, so you can't talk about that. You can't have those conversations. That's not conservative. That's not having a Socratic dialogue.

[00:43:58] That's not conservative at all. At all. So I, love, if that's what they're doing, take some of those words back. Take Patriot back. Take freedom back. Take it all back. 

[00:44:07] Bob Gatty: Yeah, they're working on it. And so you should take a look at, take a look at Biden's first a d that he just announced, they just announced that they're gonna start running in, 

[00:44:19] Corey Nathan: in his announcement got buried by the way. He announced a day that Tucker got fired. 

[00:44:24] Bob Gatty: Yeah, that's right. That's true. Alright what else did I want to ask you about? Your governor of California. Yeah. Gavin Newsom. Yeah. He just sent out a email that I received today. Republicans don't give a damn about protecting kids, and they are certainly not pro-life.

[00:44:48] North Dakota, g o p, have decided to force women to give birth even victims of rape. Meanwhile, they voted against providing school meals because child hunger isn't the responsibility of the state. Mandating birth is a state responsibility. Helping feed these kids is not. Got it.

[00:45:06] That's Gavin's tweet that he sent out today. He says if they were interested in life, they wouldn't cut child hunger programs and if they were interested in life, they wouldn't allow guns of all things to be the leading cause of death of kids. So what do you think about that?

[00:45:23] Corey Nathan: So I love what Gavin Newsom has been doing on a rhetorical front. Yeah. I think the rhetoric. He's, basically adopting the rhetoric of the Lincoln Project and I think we're, overdue for some I love Project Love. Yeah. We're, overdue for some Democratic elected officials. To, start fighting fire with fire.

[00:45:47] And this goes against my mission of talking politics and religion without killing each other. Let's all get along a thing. But you know what, at the end of the day when, something is just flat out wrong, yeah. You, know what happened in Tennessee a couple weeks ago?

[00:46:02] When, something is so un-American as to unseat duly elected officials. Why? Because they, they wanted to their voices to be heard. They wanted to represent their constituency. It's happening in North Dakota as well. Yeah. Yeah. So I think. What, Gavin Newsom is doing is he's adopting the, rhetorical style and strategy of the Lincoln Project.

[00:46:26] Now, I don't think that is always required. I think that I would still like to hold space for folks that aren't the Marjorie Taylor Greens and the Matt Gaetz' of the world. Yeah, I'd like to hold space cuz there's plenty of Republicans that are a heck of a lot closer to listen, Cheney and Kinzinger, their voting record was, was.

[00:46:47] 90% plus with Trump. Yeah. Yeah you, could call them from a legislative perspective, beyond conservative, more conservative than what a lot of folks in the House are right now. So I, I always wanna hold space for folks that will join a committee to investigate something like January 6th.

[00:47:06] I always wanna hold an off-ramp for that, but at the same time, Go ahead. Sorry. 

[00:47:12] Bob Gatty: No, I was just gonna say I loved what Cheney and Kissinger did on, that January 6th. I just thought that was and now even some Democrats are going Cheney should run for president.

[00:47:26] Yeah. 

[00:47:28] Corey Nathan: It'd be an interesting, because I think you can make the argument that Trump won in a crowded field because he there, there's this expression in advertising. A black and white ad will stand out in a color world. A color ad will stand out in a black and white world.

[00:47:45] He was the color ad, or the black and white ad and everybody else looked the same. So Cheney. Now if Cheney ran, if it was a crowded field, I think she'd have a decent chance. Yeah. But I dunno I think Trump is probably gonna basically clear the field DeSantis is, proving to be the as, unlikeable and kind like he's, a one trick pony. He, knows what'll score for Win Red. He knows what'll score on Fox News. He knows what'll score on Breitbart, but that's not a general election strategy. And, that's proving to be the case. So I think Trump will clear the field if it's Trump versus Cheney he's gonna win that nomination.

[00:48:27] But if it's Cheney in a crowded field, if Trump in a bunch of Trump wannabees, I think I, that's an interesting proposition. 

[00:48:33] Bob Gatty: Yeah. And what do you think of Nikki Haley? 

[00:48:37] Corey Nathan: I am ambivalent about Nikki Haley. I love what she did as governor of South Carolina. Her greatest day was when she she addressed what happened in the church and Charlottesville and then she addressed the flag the, South Carolina state flag. I think there was some really interesting things there. I think she was more aligned with what the kind of conservatism that I'm talking about. The, Jack Kempian type conservatism.

[00:49:06] I like the fact that she, found a way to keep at arms length. The first two years Trump's administration learned some foreign policy represented us in the UN. I liked all that. But I, don't like how she, I don't like how undecisive she's been in terms of trying to like straddle between, I, I embrace Trump, but I don't wanna embrace Trump.

[00:49:28] I, don't know I, just wish she had the courage of her convictions when it comes to Trump and Trumpism. If she had the same, 

[00:49:34] Bob Gatty: if she had the same courage that Liz Cheney had, yeah, I think it'd be something, yeah. Yeah. Okay. This has been good. You got anything else you wanna talk about?

[00:49:44] Corey Nathan: Oh man. You wanna talk about the New York Mets? That, that's another thing. It's drive me to drink Right now. Four losses is in a row, 

[00:49:51] Bob Gatty: but I'll tell you about the Baltimore Orioles. 

[00:49:54] Corey Nathan: Actually, there's some hope for the, there's some good up, up and coming kids on, the Orioles. 

[00:49:58] Bob Gatty: And they're 18 and six. They took two out of three from the Red Sox just over the weekend. Awesome. Awesome. This past week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're, rocking and rolling. I think I've, suffered through a lot of years of bad baseball with them. 

[00:50:11] Corey Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:50:13] Bob Gatty: Okay. Listen, it's been great talking to you, Corey.

[00:50:17] I appreciate you coming on Lean to the left and once again, I emphasize it's just a little lean. It's not 

[00:50:23] Corey Nathan: awesome. It's great talking to you, Bob. I hope it's not the last time. 

[00:50:27]